Anti-Warp Rule

[Fork]

or of course there would still be basing because flags arent controlled by bots

I thought if all the bots went down- the timer goes :O Mb then hehe.

[bkgmjo]

The bots only add the timer and rewards to basing, which improves it a bit. But people knew how to base in pub long before this existed, too.

As for what demonic said: ya, it was commonly agreed to remove this all in an upperstaff meeting and I still have to be updated on any changes to that, if there are any. We will soon start heading this way when zreq is a little less busy irl.

[Fork]

The bots only add the timer and rewards to basing, which improves it a bit. But people knew how to base in pub long before this existed, too.

As for what demonic said: ya, it was commonly agreed to remove this all in an upperstaff meeting and I still have to be updated on any changes to that, if there are any. We will soon start heading this way when zreq is a little less busy irl.

I don't know how anyone could base without a timer lol, I guess they just hold the flag for aslong as possible which would be insanely boring.

So we heading towards removing spacebux\ making pub how it was? How long would it take to remove spacebux... I'm very curious about what pub players will think about that you see, would people get bored quicker? People whine about their money has gone and dueling would most likely have an impact, might as well ?go duel instead. I have a feeling the population in pub will decrease if it happened because people play pub for different reasons and you'll be just taking away a reason for some players... I could be terribly wrong though, that's why I want to see what happens.

[fiS]

Fork, there is a good amount of players not enjoying pub anymore (or calling it insanely boring) because of the ability to buy items everywhere. Just to mention a few... buying a FC whenever gives huge advantages in certain situations because it is simply unexpected for the enemy, the use of super and shield have great impacts on a basing game, epidemic of course too, all these things aren't "natural" to TW pub and thus, I would say, it is a good decision restoring the old ?buy as it was.

Yes, the duelling aspect with pubbucks is nice and a lot of players seem to enjoy it, it will indeed be sad if that would be entirely gone. But one could be using spacebucks for something else than just the !buying - whatever it might be, so they don't become worthless.

Kinda what I said before... instead of adding more and more features to Pub, it's wise to start taking some things away. Making it more simple, returning - to some extent, and slowly - to what we had.

[Fork]

Fork, there is a good amount of players not enjoying pub anymore (or calling it insanely boring) because of the ability to buy items everywhere. Just to mention a few... buying a FC whenever gives huge advantages in certain situations because it is simply unexpected for the enemy, the use of super and shield have great impacts on a basing game, epidemic of course too, all these things aren't "natural" to TW pub and thus, I would say, it is a good decision restoring the old ?buy as it was.

Yes, the duelling aspect with pubbucks is nice and a lot of players seem to enjoy it, it will indeed be sad if that would be entirely gone. But one could be using spacebucks for something else than just the !buying - whatever it might be, so they don't become worthless.

Kinda what I said before... instead of adding more and more features to Pub, it's wise to start taking some things away. Making it more simple, returning - to some extent, and slowly - to what we had.

I completely agree with removing the game changing buy options, I'm kinda shocked this hasnt already been removed already. I think you're missing my point though, once all the the unnecessary buy options are removed, are we eventually going to remove spacebux completely? If so, would this be a good or bad thing? Are there people who like to play pub simply to collect spacebux and be the richest? Are there people who love to high risk duel? Would pub seem more boring without spacebux?

Or on the other side removing all these buy options would make spacebux even more pointless and perhaps people may get annoyed that they can't spend any of it?

Only saying this for discussion to gather opinions of completely removing spacebux

[Pressure]

It still blows my mind that staff has destroyed the LT population. One of the most exciting and entertaining aspects of SS when I was a little kid first starting off was LT'ing and seeing how much bounty I could get. What staff doesn't realize is that they've put the opinions of literally 5 completely random pubbers on a pedestal because they came on forums and complained about LT's. LT's were one of the core features of TW, one of the few team-building exercises that set us apart from other zones. Even vulching with a partner in EG is noting compared to LT. Sadly, however, staff actually listened to these complete newbies.

The worst part becomes apparent when you consider why they did it. I've heard that anti-warp and anti-LT campaigns were designed to prevent LT's from damaging the integrity of basing in pub. Meanwhile, I'm giving sound advice regarding how to improve the basing in pub (remove anti-warp), and am being completely ignored. So basically, from an objective standpoint, you've successfully done the following to "improve pub basing":

1) Destroyed a population of the game (LT'ers) that was incredibly active, and fun, and required teamwork, and PERFECTLY SUITED for new players, in hopes to prevent LT's from destroying the "competitive games in pub" (lol). Most of these pure LT'ers were actually active, solid pub basers too, too bad you guys fucked them over
2) Added and supported a biased feature (anti-warp) that removes any incentive for terrs who can actually provoke a fun pub match, like myself, from wanting to play at all when it is in use

And what was the result? Less competitive play in pub, less basing overall in pub, less activity overall in pub, less interest in pub, and less pure pubbers pubbing (haven't seen the true LTs in years, rip)

Now instead of responding to complete scrubs and amateurs about their juvenile and embarrassingly pathetic concerns, Azov, bkmojojojo, answer my questions with some rational and reasoning. I know you guys are active and doing the best you can to improve the zone, but tbh I have never seen either of you in the game in the last 15 years that I've played and it's quite sad that you aren't hearing me out when I am offering valuable perspective and turban, your new temp sysop, one of the very few remaining who sees both sides of pub and competitive play, is agreeing.

[freakmonger-tw]

If you're going to make any changes based on the opinions of players, those changes should be derived from a poll from a bot in game. Most of the people on the forums are league players who don't play pub much (or at all).

[bkgmjo]

@Fork
The idea is not to remove bux, but remove the !buy features, which harm the game. Dueling, gambling, betting and the like might even get a few more options and collecting bux and bragging about it is still some addictive factor, which is not planned to be removed. It might require some balancing though.

@Pressure
Well, I totally agree with what you said and that staff in the past ignored pretty much anything that could have improved pub, while adding more and more "anti-LT features", which pretty much all backfired and had an impact on the population. Not to talk about them heavily impacting other play styles, too.

I find it a bit disappointing that you claim I never pub, because that is pretty much all I do on this game since 98. You might remember this fool often sitting on roof, sometimes named "L O V E" more than my name though. So, just for you a little info on my aim, position and background here:

I started this game in 98, been working closely with dev since early 2ks, tested and debugged banG, BanC, several bots, arenas and parts of the databases. All as inofficial member. Went amok when mootland decided to add weird purepub ideas and fuck with the most active pub players, but since not a single person on staff listened, left for a year or so. Since I always tried to help new players and answer question in pub and many staffers used to send comp/network problem ppl to me anyways, someone convinced me to become ZH with the promise, that now actual pub player's opinions would be heard before changes. That lasted for some weeks, until the next person came and fucked with players by adding further lev experiments, back and forth for months, then going AWOL leaving lots of broken settings in pub. Reason enough to leave once again. Now on an upperstaff meeting it was decided to go back to L3 levs, remove !buy, promote staff activity in pub and a few more things. So, I join staff again now, this time as dev mod, recently getting a title of "assistant head of pub". I still do not know if this lets me decide anything or has any meaning at all, but what I am doing is pressing into the directions I have fought for for the last years, trying to establish player-staff communication, reducing illegal action and in the time between listen to ppl complaining after they got shiplocked from heavy teamkilling or have been silenced all day long. I am however glad to be able to say that we have zreqdf as head of pub and dev and turban as sysop, both team players, active and willing to actually listen to concerns and problems of pub players, which has not happened in this century yet.

PS: I also believe AW should be gone, but have to leave the simple minded LT hunters at least one toy that compensates for a lack of creativity :-P

[Pressure]

@Pressure
Well, I totally agree with what you said and that staff in the past ignored pretty much anything that could have improved pub, while adding more and more "anti-LT features", which pretty much all backfired and had an impact on the population. Not to talk about them heavily impacting other play styles, too.

I find it a bit disappointing that you claim I never pub, because that is pretty much all I do on this game since 98. You might remember this fool often sitting on roof, sometimes named "L O V E" more than my name though. So, just for you a little info on my aim, position and background here:

I started this game in 98, been working closely with dev since early 2ks, tested and debugged banG, BanC, several bots, arenas and parts of the databases. All as inofficial member. Went amok when mootland decided to add weird purepub ideas and fuck with the most active pub players, but since not a single person on staff listened, left for a year or so. Since I always tried to help new players and answer question in pub and many staffers used to send comp/network problem ppl to me anyways, someone convinced me to become ZH with the promise, that now actual pub player's opinions would be heard before changes. That lasted for some weeks, until the next person came and fucked with players by adding further lev experiments, back and forth for months, then going AWOL leaving lots of broken settings in pub. Reason enough to leave once again. Now on an upperstaff meeting it was decided to go back to L3 levs, remove !buy, promote staff activity in pub and a few more things. So, I join staff again now, this time as dev mod, recently getting a title of "assistant head of pub". I still do not know if this lets me decide anything or has any meaning at all, but what I am doing is pressing into the directions I have fought for for the last years, trying to establish player-staff communication, reducing illegal action and in the time between listen to ppl complaining after they got shiplocked from heavy teamkilling or have been silenced all day long. I am however glad to be able to say that we have zreqdf as head of pub and dev and turban as sysop, both team players, active and willing to actually listen to concerns and problems of pub players, which has not happened in this century yet.

PS: I also believe AW should be gone, but have to leave the simple minded LT hunters at least one toy that compensates for a lack of creativity :-P

No disrespect but I simply do not have time to read your backstory right now. In response to your PS - do you, though? Do you really have to give the 1-2 people (literally, take that in, 1-2 people) per 50+ (those actually trying to have fun in pub) antiwarp so they can chase around the LT? Who the fuck cares if the LT bombs the flag room and kills everyone? Seriously? Staff has already destroyed the map so that the professional LT shots and skill shots are gone, so what's the problem with letting them fly around and bounty hunt? Anyone who wants to chase an LT should have a right to do so, but at the expense of the entire basing match where 10x the amount of people are playing? Not fair at all. These "simple minded LT hunters" can be given a different toy, like accelerated thrust to chase the LT down, or decreased energy depletion to thrust longer, or longer-range bullets, instead of something that DIRECTLY INTERFERES with pub basing.

I know you're doing your best, but anti-warp has to go if you want pub basing to actually thrive. The terr is not just a ship that runs around and goes "haha guys I'm a taxi here ya go woot woot!" It's just as much of a killer as any other ship especially with the ability to port. Imagine taking sharks' mines/shrap away, or cloak away from weasel, or bullets away from a fighter ship, that's essentially what you're doing to base terrs by allowing anti. Why should I lose my special if there is nothing to take special away from other ships? I like to use portals to practice vsing spids and warbirds 1 v 1, or to be overaggressive and see how long I can last because that's the only challenge available in pub for a league terr. But with anti, you strip that fun away completely, and I spec.

[olde]

I just wanna pub like its 2003 again, pubbing use to be fun. All these new rules and LT changes make it no fun. The best part about pub was LTing/hunting LT's. Or for that matter just seeing how high I could get my bounty. Why's everything gotta be about basing? Not everyone enjoys it..... Selfish fuks...

[bkgmjo]

Well, antiwarp is buyable only from safe right now. Let this stay for a bit and see if people still keep harassing baseterrs with it and if it still stays a problem, we can always increase the price or talk about removing it when it has sunken in. I doubt it though as many will quickly get tired of having to fly to safe, buy and then see if someone is waiting for them on roof.

And ya, I want to have fun chasing pro LTs around again, too. But we have to go one by one and have to take it a bit slower than desired by many. Not just to not freak out people who got used to spamming !buys and other current stuff, but also since dev ressources are pretty down atm and this steam thing causes distraction, too.

[Ephemeral]

The idea of removing roof has come up a few times, ... Instead people now rely on a bot to kill their target and use it as built-in cheat, just like most of the !buys.

'Instead people' should be changed to 'vets', new player have no idea or no money to be buying dumb shit.

There are surely things leagues and pub can adopt from each other, but removing variety from this game is a definite step towards it's extinction.

Others would argue that the best designs are those in which there is nothing left to remove, not when there is nothing left to add.

Also, it seems as though haters only see private LTs being around. Levs and LTs have been a valuable tool in basing for soon 20 years. From inside, from mid and from roof and it's sides they take over the role of the heavy artillery and I would always hope for an experienced LT and maybe one or two roofers on my freq when basing. Even the private freq ones can often be used to the own advantage and if not, always give an exciting target to hunt. As said many times before, if you want to go for pure basing with boring as hell always-the-same games with absolutely no surprise factor, there is ?go base and twbd.

I agree there is a legitimate use of LTs, which is why I have never felt they they should be prohibited. Using a LT to 'soften' the defense in a flag room is indeed a strategy. But this falls apart when talking about private freq LTs which are not trying to take FR at all. Many simply run about raining bombs down on the FR and never even try to take FR. And allowing them to roam the roof at start, when the majority of the zone gets warped into ears, is simply stupid.
Eph

[kthx]

So.. pretty easy fic to this is make levtert combos only available on freqs 0 and 1, and spec the lev at 5-7 tks an hour, so they have to help a team, have to aim smart and know whats happening in the fr/mid to avoid losing their bounty and can still lt, levterr hunters can still join the other freq to hunt and thats one less freq not actually basing.