Specials in TWBD and bot commands

[Trasher]

Premise: I think it is safe to assume that using ships 1, 2 and 7 ("special ships") in TWBD has a negative impact on activity and new players getting into basing and should thus be limited.


Using specials in basing is fun. At least to the person who uses them. Most likely not so fun for the opposing team and their terrier. I know I have been guilty of partaking in this fun in the past and hopefully in the future as well. So as a hypocrite, this at least gives me insight into the problems specials (ships 1, 2, 7) in TWBD bring.


Most everyone agrees that newbies get destroyed by a semi-competent special ship and that it might actually be one of the many reasons basing is in the sad state that it is. Newbies have a hard enough time with the game as it is and adjusting to people using specials against them is often too much.


Newbies themselves cannot counter specials with their own specials simply because their team is too weak to support it and even a good player can have trouble getting through 2 competent sharks to get at the terrier. Thus the special weapon is only really usable by the already stronger.


Granted the newbies would most likely get destroyed by a regular lineup as well, but the learning phase would at least be a smooth ride. The only way to make the game "fair" is intentionally handicapping your lineups, such as terriering Henry Saari or sharking DOWNFALL. Now I'm not saying we should just let newbies win outright, but give them a chance at least.


I'm glad we have a squad actually making the zone more active and trying to bring in new basers (24/7 bd). Thank you guys and the veterans on it. I feel like they have been getting shafted lately though in bd'ing, especially against Patouf, which uses lineups such as all lancs on a regular basis vs them. And oh boy is it devastating. I know some players feel especially strongly about this (hi spezza).


What I propose is a bot command for TWBD that can prohibit specials from being used in a match, either to 0 or to custom amount per team like 1/team. I am not a coder so I have no idea how easy or hard this would actually be to implement of course. Using this command would obviously be optional and require both teams to agree to it.


The "no special" command could be used pre-game in the 7 mins you have, and/or it could be used in the challenging command itself somehow, something like !chtopX 6. X = no specials. "Squad X challenges you to a game of 6v6 TWBD with no special ships (1, 2, 7) allowed, bla bla bla."


I could be making too big of a deal of this, but at this stage I know that it at least can't hurt to try this. The other option of course would be a gentleman's agreement of not using specials if respectfully asked by the opposing team, but given how shitty the community in this game often is, I don't think that is going to work.


All this might be pandering and coddling, but as long as it helps TWBD activity it should be something to consider.


TL;DR code TWBD bot to disallow use of specials if both teams agree. Or we could say fk it and let things continue as they are.

edit: or, since this would probably be much simpler - make TWBD3 arena a designated no specials arena, similar to how resolution is handled for TWDD3.

[Rab]

I haven't really seen lanc being a major issue, but I think lanc doesn't belong in base.
Wb is too strong and should be disallowed.
Jav I think is OK, at least spids can kill it, and it's a useful option to prevent 15 minute crams.

I've always said that twd and twl should have the same rules.
E.g. for no res limits. So I'd say the same here, whatever we do in twd should be the same in twl.
So that means I don't like that it's a choice, either apply the change everywhere or nowhere.

I also think that pub should have the same settings as twd and twl.
I don't mean restricting ships in pub.
I mean allowing all ships in twd and twl - and adjusting them for balance.
Essentially back to how the settings were 10 yrs ago.

[Turban]

to chime in my two cents, all three specials have the potential to be extremely toxic in a non-competitive basing match in the right hands, and this is especially true from a new players point of view as you need to be able to completely alter the way you play the game. sharks play the biggest role when attempting to counter javelin and warbird, while lancaster is more of a hunter of lowly experienced spiders and sharks alike.

it certainly wouldn't harm anyone to have an option for a basing match without specials as basing is often times more fun for everyone when it's a standard sharks, spiders and terrier setting on both teams.

@ Rab: as far as TWD and TWL being identical and should use the same rules, I agree for the time being. however the plan is to separate TWL and TWD to make them individual competitions, with their own set of rules and goals, and it's something that I will be working on with the heads of TWD when TWDT ends unless someone else wants to give it a fair shot.

[maketso]

The "new" lanc really is way too good for basing. Easiest thing to do is to just change it back to old lanc (shoot once and wait 1 hour to recharge or smthing). Now I dont know why it was ever changed because TWD/TWL and Pub shouldnt be connected

I dont think jav/wb is a problem

[Downfall]

I understand saying that lancs may make the game harder for newbies to learn, but its actually being effective against everyone, even people who have played for years, it could just flat out be that no one has correctly utilized lancs into the twbd lineup.

http://twd.trenchwars.org/showgame/90083749

Example, if a lineup of lancs can win a game like that which is no noobs at all, it should be treated as a competitive aspect to twbd.

[Wazzaaa.nl]

I agree with Trasher,
Almost every game I play vs Patouf, they use like 6 lances, 1 shark and 1 terrier
My squad got like 50% new TWD'ers if it's not more especially if you compare that against the usage of players from patouf
When they all lancaster it's just fukn annoying and it won't make new players improve,
they get more frustrated because they can't counter it and rather leave
so if there would come some kind of command where specials are prohibited,
I would def use it

However the "elite" top of this game seems to be like 50% trolls
so I guess they'll find some other way to troll new TWD players
just to make up for their insecurity irl

[roxxkatt]

this could easily be handled like blueout is

it could be easily added to twcore



the problem is good luck finding someone that CAN do it and is bored enough to spend their time doing it

[Stayon]

I agree with Trasher,
Almost every game I play vs Patouf, they use like 6 lances, 1 shark and 1 terrier
My squad got like 50% new TWD'ers if it's not more especially if you compare that against the usage of players from patouf
When they all lancaster it's just fukn annoying and it won't make new players improve,
they get more frustrated because they can't counter it and rather leave
so if there would come some kind of command where specials are prohibited,
I would def use it

However the "elite" top of this game seems to be like 50% trolls
so I guess they'll find some other way to troll new TWD players
just to make up for their insecurity irl

Hey, gonna enlight you very quicky. Also, make sure you understand personally I'm ok with any rule changes regarding lineups, or any kind of changes regarding basing, as for me they are welcome, I dislike being stuck with the same system.

Downfall made a point on lancs up there, and also showed how we been trying to do it vs curse and leviathan.

Good basing squads have always used specials in twbd off seasons especially, I know you're oblivious to this fact, but buddy, when I started in 2002, do you think anyone gave me a break? Hilarious if you think so. Did I play vs spids most time? yes. Did I countless times faced Disoblige or Pallies who systematicly used atleast 2 specials per bd (Divine if you're reading this, you a champ in my eyes), when they were the dominant squads. (cram was getting 'invented' at the time.)

As for you personally feeling trolled...do you want us to spoon feed you? Want me to do your hair and nails, cutie? Since when has the game been about helping people? the "community", the "newbs", oh yes, spare me all of that, they are are piss poor excuses from people. Just like mid-tier twl level players say over the years, as an excuse of not going further when they just arent good enough. Or people removing FR cram bricks to make cram easier to break (Pure_Luck on dice's cram years ago) and adding 2 seconds to spawn time, or having people whine about squads playing a man down vs them as they feel disrespected (are you kidding me?), or having the same old people saying stacked squads always win when the reality is simple, they're not good enough to win, or else they'd be in them. That, and every single squad on tw, since ever being stacked in numbers of players (which is the important factor for tw's activity, not the quality of them). But yet, you still see people dropping verbal diarrhea on game and forums when they dont realize every single squad on the game as an excess of players. Excuses, an absolute classic on this game, its always easier to point and blame on a loss. I've done it myself. Once or twice is fine, but being a constant part of your E-attitude, its trully revealing on how a part of this zone is outside this box. Ameding yourself, learning and pushing yourself is how you should conduct, not moan. Do you do that in your job/school and friends/girlfriends?

Me nor anyone is here to do yours or anyone's laundry, hopefully, the idea of competitive drive (which half this zone lacks, hopefully its not the same way in their real life) still exists, beside it's "community" and terrible respectful manners. In the end, its a 2D game, and we're here to play. Not only should anyone EVER ask for a break to their opposition, the goal of the game isn't about making your opponent's life easier. There's also the huge misconception, that newbs improve in 15-1, in an all spids game. Playing vs specials actually makes you understand the game faster, and by all means, playing vs specials should serve you as motivation to smack the very same people that are specialing vs you. One day, you'll be the one using specials. I know its 2015 and it might be a bit late, but hope is never a lost cause.

Realisticly? Won't happen, as when people compete (hopefully in a respectful way), you soon find out that, there are people who will always be better no matter what you do. Or else we'd all be rap stars or Dubai financial geniuses, just like some people who "retired" and are now on some 15y old avg population game like LoL. Get the hint? Excuses, buddy.

[Stayon]

Oh, and one more to help my point sulk in. On my area of work, hotel business, I have to deal with the most futile shit. Reading this kind of stuff bothers me with some extent. Even more so, when I think about a friend of mine who created a small company called Kibera with Love (you can google it), every year, she goes to a favela called Kibera, in Quenia, to do volunteer work, most times, alone. She got dozens of those kids, and opportunity to go to school, and ditch the slums on the favela. When she posts pics of her with them on facebook, those kids have a huge fucking smile on their face knowing the opportunity they have. We in the western world, with our usual first world problems, are ungreatful fucks. And im here reading about specials and people "giving up" on the only game that I play. Obnoxious.

[Wazzaaa.nl]

It's not 2000, it's 2015 we don't have the amount of people we used to have
this time is a survival time, about trying to keep the game active as much
I see you got the same old view on the game, like the older players
this is one of the reasons what caused trenchwars to be what it is, a dying game
keep on thinking we're in 2000 with tons of ppl and tons of squads
with your thinking in this time we'll have just two squads in twl soon

I don't make any excuses here, im just dumbfound you can't seem to understand new players from this time and era
realise your patouf "vetstyle" is one of the reasons new players don't stick around long
they realise this game is dying why would they want to stay longer and get trolled on by the "vets"?
They rather not take the time to stay and level up, picking a new game is so easy days esp if the current game got like < 100 active players

[Jerome Scuggs]

that was the weirdest thing i've ever read. so basically stayon wants us all to push ourselves to new levels, because otherwise we're just failures or w/e

but here's the thing man we already have pushed ourselves to new levels, such as "windows 7", "broadband internet", "other video games". this game might be the only game you play but most people nowadays unfortunately don't, and just as unfortunately, people hate change, etc etc etc.

if this convo happened 10yrs ago i'd be laughing at trasher, but also, 10 years ago trasher wouldnt have to post something like this, there would be an active community who would tackle this new change in gameplay and come up with new tactics - just like with cramming

but now, idk, you seriously have to take into consideration the fact that there just isnt enough activity to let that sort of dynamic process happen. i don't think changing the rules is something that needs to be done but idk, don't be a dick about it. but since you're posting about people you know pulling themselves up by their bootstraps to take pictures of favela kids i guess you lean on the more ayn rand-y side of this debate, "winners win losers lose fuck everyone who isn't me" mentality. but just remember half of the game is the people you play against, and if you run them all off what game will you play next?

[Spezza]

Rep ignore is a broken facet of this game, lancs exploit that more than any other ship in base (besides rocketing javs obviously) because of how much they can shoot, how powerful their shots are, and how fast their bullets are. So when you're a shark going up against 5 lancasters it is folly to assume even if you rep before they shoot that you will not get rep ignored, it is broken. Now when you have a new squad with not 3 yr+ sharks it becomes pretty demoralizing for everyone because the sharks cannot control the situation, they want to leave the bd because what is the point of playing if you have MORE limited control over the outcome than before

Spiders are sad because they attach and die often and a good lancaster should never die to a spider 1v1 in any ranged setting so newer spiders get discouraged from bad records (as do "elite" bozos). The obvious answer to all lancs is just to do all lancs as well and that's a valid point but either way you are changing the game the other squad accepted to play.

Now for Stayon:
Your idea of people having the competitive drive to try and push through impediments in their way is very idealistic. In sports psych (LOL SUCH A SPORT) you learn that new players are motivated best with positive reinforcement OFTEN and repeatedly and overall motivation is fostered best by a 5:1 ratio of positive reinforcement vs constructive criticism. They are losing motivation every time they play you guys because the situation becomes less and less in their control(rep ignore IS BROKEN) and in middle they are at a HUGE disadvantage spider vs lancaster. Overall they look at their score and are crestfallen, the judgement when you're a new player is way too harsh from everyone. I don't see how you think that is a good learning environment.

Your thoughts on learning to play vs specials I have considered as well. I believe playing against lancasters and warbirds should help sharks learn some things that are probably less obvious to learn while playing vs spiders, and it should teach spiders to push better behind sharks for fear of 1 hit KO. In practice it doesn't work like that because its too hard to recover when a rep is ignored or missed, rep lag is really big in base with such little space as seen by rep bursts killing 3 different people.

The option on bots would be good, I think any squad will play any squad anyways but I think it's obvious that what patouf is doing at least vs 24/7 is not to try different things, and is not to help 24/7 learn and I hate that you make that your "reason" when you obviously won't learn that from beating new players, demoralizing them, taking away any sense of control and MAKING THEM WANT TO LEAVE DURING BD.

[zidane]

stayon is a clown for real and he also has about 50 spelling errors in that block of text

[Stayon]

zid budddddd, spelling erros (get it) the last thing on my mind. you ever type more than a sentence? Ill write two of them, on how much love I have to give you wednesdays after a salty Russian Bride scrubs my back. Want it in Spannish, Portuguese, French or the single one you know?

[Jerome Scuggs]

i didnt wanna mention it first because i am terrible at this game and so "lag" is probably just another excuse i use, but spezza hit the nail on the head - lancs exploit the little quirks of lag worse than any other ship in the a twbd. wb's/javs/spids each have natural 'checks' against rep ignore abuse. wbs/javs can be cleaned up with 1 bullet after firing, repignored spider bullets won't 1-shot you if you can manage your energy, and for all three, sharks repels can be timed, so even with laggers, you can feel when they are gonna shoot and still rep. lancs sort of skirt around all these natural balances, even if their first shot is repped, they can usually fire the second volley before a shark can get off the next repel - or they can save their second shot, giving them enough energy to stay alive. most sharks wind up wasting alot of repels against lancs, popping off 2-3 reps in the hope of catching the lanc volley, which then affects timing and coverage.

i mean, i could work my ass off and try to get better, but at the same time it's also frustrating knowing that at my best, i'm still at a disadvantage because of my 30-40ms.

this actually makes me wanna take the convo to another thread, but since no1 is actually developing the game i might as well just post here - my sort of theory about this is that (in very unscientific terms) the client is programmed with a built in 'prediction' algorithm that kicks in when lag occurs, ie, when you lose connection the client continues to 'move' your ship, and when you regain connection this causes all the 'jumping' and ignores due to conflicting information being sent by client and server. that in-of-itself is not the problem, the issue is that the system was designed to work in a 56k era and now connections are so good that the differences between connections is sometimes monstrous - when a 100ms player fought a 120ms player you wouldnt notice any lopsided lag, but now you see 40ms averagers playing against 140ms averagers and i think this creates a situation where the client basically gives one player an advantage in terms of pure reaction time.

i mean, is there anyone who is both 1) considered a top10 player in their league who 2) routinely has ?lag under 80ms?