Double squadding

[Dethdefire]

Here's an idea:

Instead of letting random people double squad, why not just delete all squads currently in TWD (all 4 of them) and make two giant squads. Problem solved. If you can't find enough people to 3v3 when there are only 2 squads, then what would be the point of double squadding anyways?

Let both squads accept everyone that applies, but make it so that each squad has to be balanced. If one squad has 101 players and the other 100, then the applicant has to join the one with only 100. Okay, I realize 100 players on either squad is drastically over exaggerating based on the current poplation, so think of it more like 20 and 21 players.

See how well that would work. Also, make more assistants so that more people can get games.

This is a good idea. However, you wouldn't have to necessarily eliminate squads all together to do this. Keep TWD as it is, except allow players one squad per TWD classification (TWDD,TWBD,TWJD). This would allow people on a DD/JD squad to still join a BD squad. They should not be allowed to DD/JD/BD on two squads though. Also, allowing people to register to one of two "world" squads at the same time, as exalt said, is a great idea. That way if their squad is not on they can still participate in "World" matches. I think that this idea will seriously pick up TWD activity.

[Tiny]

Shadowmere said he would reply to this thread, but I will bump it so he sees it. At the moment, Shadowmere is working on something to help twd in the long run, and I suggested something to help it in the mean time. I don't feel this idea would hurt the new changes or be too hard to implement and I would be more than willing to assist in the process of doing this. I suggested before that from January to March we allow a controlled environment double squadding system that went hand in hand with twdt rosters. After the draft next sunday, we could allow captains to create twd(twdt) squads and for their players to join. This could allow for the current twd teams to play as well as the twdt teams (mostly same people), but would give them the chance to play if their squad isn't active at the moment. I imagine this would include having twd operators alias checking people once, then registering the 2nd name. ......Actually now that I think about it, we could allow people to only alias if they use their twdt name with some sort of character after it. This would make it easy to unregister all the names after twdt finished...ie...Tiny <DT>. Thoughts?

[Shadowmere]

As I've discussed with TWD Operators, a few players, and Tiny yesterday, doublesquadding can work but it will require roster limitations and other restrictions along with it.

While it would be simple the way Tiny described it, there are holes in the plan. -- Such as anyone able to create a name, once TWDT (registration) is over no new players could doublesquad, etc...
We're looking to create a more long term way that's efficient and easy for operators and players alike.

For all of it we will need the help of bot and web dev.
Currently the priority is getting TWD player ratings up and running and working. Then after that we'll look into implementing this.
Ideas are still welcome and I will read them and discuss if necessary.

Oh and, we're not dissolving any squads to create two big ones, or anything of the sort.

[Exalt]

Oh and, we're not dissolving any squads to create two big ones, or anything of the sort.

EDIT: Fuck it, whatever. Doesn't matter what I say. Shadow, word of advise. Learn how to communicate with the players and give reasons for things you do/don't do. Even if someone gives a bad idea, explain why you think it's bad. Don't just say 'denied' when players take time to give ideas to help you do your job.

Also, keeping everything the same hasn't worked for 20 years now. Population continues to dwindle and we have zero new players after Steam. Look at the game and realize that keeping things the same hasn't worked. Try something new for once or just admit you have no intentions of ever making TWD better so nobody else wastes their time.

[Turban]

my word of advise is similar to what Exalt was trying to convey with his message.

you will never gain the trust of the players with constant secrecy and lack of communication, and that statement is especially true in community ran games such as this one. it honestly doesn't take much effort to communicate with the players about the current projects, or take the time to discuss and explain as to why we are not going to be working on a project that was suggested by a player in detail. we shouldn't be forced to be stay in the shadows, unbeknownst of what is happening behind the scenes, but rather we should all be out in the open willing to discuss and work on projects together as a community.

as an additional note, there is absolutely no reason to develop a superiority complex when you get assigned to a position within staff -- we are still all equal, and in the end of the day, most of us still dearly care about the future of this game and wish to contribute in one way or another.

.. and yes, I am well aware about the current developer situation. it is unfortunate, but despite that fact there are numerous things that can be done and worked on with very minimal help required from the development side of things.

[Exalt]

There's a reason I always thought you were one of the best staffers TW has had Turban. You always understood that communication is the key. Why'd you quit? No time?

Anyways, I just want to see change. Maybe nothing will stop the inevitable, but any kind of spark will probably be a good thing. I remember how much TWD did for this game when I was first created in like 2001/2002. It was huge. Ideas like that, things that make the game feel new and fresh, are what I believe we should strive for. Keeping the status quo is only good for Pub. We haven't seen a legitimate change/improvement to TWD on a very long time.

[Crescent Seal]

I have a full proof multi-step plan to ensure this game's survival.

1. Create a TW Council composed of random nigs.
2. Put a censor on these forums and filter out many words such as "faggot".
3. Make the following players upper staff and give them the power to ban/warn/silence: Shadowmere, Azov, Left_Eye, Undercunt, Shaddowknight, oO.Oo, trancetunes, disown, poid, hms stargazer, and the block.
4. Create a continuum replacement project and name it QuantumSpace. Make sure Poid is in charge of this. His track record speaks for itself.
5. Launch the game on Steam.

[Ganon-Knight]

I have a full proof multi-step plan to ensure this game's survival.

1. Create a TW Council composed of random nigs.
2. Put a censor on these forums and filter out many words such as "faggot".
3. Make the following players upper staff and give them the power to ban/warn/silence: Shadowmere, Azov, Left_Eye, Undercunt, Shaddowknight, oO.Oo, trancetunes, disown, poid, hms stargazer, and the block.
4. Create a continuum replacement project and name it QuantumSpace. Make sure Poid is in charge of this. His track record speaks for itself.
5. Launch the game on Steam.

[Shadowmere]

EDIT: Fuck it, whatever. Doesn't matter what I say. Shadow, word of advise. Learn how to communicate with the players and give reasons for things you do/don't do. Even if someone gives a bad idea, explain why you think it's bad. Don't just say 'denied' when players take time to give ideas to help you do your job.

Also, keeping everything the same hasn't worked for 20 years now. Population continues to dwindle and we have zero new players after Steam. Look at the game and realize that keeping things the same hasn't worked. Try something new for once or just admit you have no intentions of ever making TWD better so nobody else wastes their time.

We're obviously not keeping everything the same.
You doubted TWD player ratings would bring more activity to TWD. As I see it, it'll give incentive to players on a personal level to play more.
If you're playing a squad with better rated players, you'll get bonuses towards your rating if you manage to do good against them.

Dissolving squads, not a good idea, for obvious reasons. Some players have worked years to make a name for themselves and their squad.
With TWD player ratings, differences between squad skill levels and it affecting rating changes, just having 2 big squads doesn't work.
Yes, it would increase activity, but that's about it. What else does it bring on the table? How can we build on that? Negatives? Other than players just quitting altogether because they either won't be placed in a match, don't want to play with player x, too crowded to even talk...

For your information, there's still about 200 names playing in TWD since reset on December 12th.

my word of advise is similar to what Exalt was trying to convey with his message.

you will never gain the trust of the players with constant secrecy and lack of communication, and that statement is especially true in community ran games such as this one. it honestly doesn't take much effort to communicate with the players about the current projects, or take the time to discuss and explain as to why we are not going to be working on a project that was suggested by a player in detail. we shouldn't be forced to be stay in the shadows, unbeknownst of what is happening behind the scenes, but rather we should all be out in the open willing to discuss and work on projects together as a community.

as an additional note, there is absolutely no reason to develop a superiority complex when you get assigned to a position within staff -- we are still all equal, and in the end of the day, most of us still dearly care about the future of this game and wish to contribute in one way or another.

.. and yes, I am well aware about the current developer situation. it is unfortunate, but despite that fact there are numerous things that can be done and worked on with very minimal help required from the development side of things.

You confuse me to death sometimes.

You were given the option to make changes for TWD. Something you turned down.
If there is so many things that can be done with minimal help, how come you haven't named one? If it's something from over 2 years ago, sorry I didn't dig it up. Just really curious here.
I'm fairly sure I asked for help from the community the moment I was put into this position. You're really good at talking, but you're contradicting yourself when you're not explaining yourself any better than the next guy.

Words are just words.


There is only brain storming going on behind the scenes... About the subjects mentioned in news.txt since yesterday:

- TWD player ratings
- Possible, restricted double squadding
- Roster caps
- Resolution limits removed
- Alternative TWD match arenas for TWDD, TWJD and TWBD

This brain storming is to figure out the optimal way for players, operators and devs to work at it while thinking of pros and cons. We can't just say "lets go with this".

Like I said earlier, TWD player ratings is the priority. The rest comes after.

[Turban]

uh, yeah.. about that.. let me correct you on this tiny little piece of information which you forgot to mention. It is a rather important piece of the puzzle and should not be forgotten about:

I was never in charge of the TWD, thus was not in a position to make changes. There was a point in time where we did try to make an overall rating calculation change to the TWD website, for TWL qualification purposes, but that project collapsed swiftly as no one was capable enough (at that time) to do web related work.



Now, as far as the simple things that require minimal work from the development side of things (but, in return, require active and capable TWD operators) would be things such as ..

- achievements / set goals for players to meet. this would require the operators to keep track of the overall player statistics and give out medals (on a per league basis) to players who meet certain milestones such as 100 games played or some other simple stats which can easily be accessed on the main page. you could run a check every Friday for achievement eligibility and keep track of players with medals on the forums or by using a spreadsheet.

- allowing players to be in two rosters although that one is rather controversial with mixed opinions on it. the optimal way of doing this is either to allow players to select an alternate name and allow them to join another roster while including them on a public list on the forums where players can see who is who and where. the other option would be touching the code of our TWD website to allow players to be on two rosters with the same name. the latter one is messy and pretty tough to accomplish with the lack of developers, but the first one would be easy to brute force through if you want to go with that path.

- custom maps, holiday maps, alternate maps (can have up to 5 with TWJD3-7 if i'm not mistaken) and graphics (such as big bullets set as optional for all the players) in certain arenas

- home arenas for long lasting squads. it wouldn't be too hard to implement that as an option to the bots.

- implementation of some sort of competition for the TWD. you could easily try to set up a TWD cup of sorts and manually run it.

- set up meetings that everyone can join to inform the players with the current status of a project or openly discuss them on the forums with separate threads

- setting changes (spawn radius, radar size, resolution limit poll, bullet alive time) in the arenas

- introductory squads ran by TWD operators for the new players


the sky is the limit. you don't have to completely rely on the developers to do things for you. however, as you pointed out, it is better to have a proper meeting and discuss the changes with the other operators and even players before going through the effort.

[Shadowmere]

- achievements / set goals for players to meet. this would require the operators to keep track of the overall player statistics and give out medals (on a per league basis) to players who meet certain milestones such as 100 games played or some other simple stats which can easily be accessed on the main page. you could run a check every Friday for achievement eligibility and keep track of players with medals on the forums or by using a spreadsheet.

Ardour will soon work on a new profile page for players on the main trenchwars.org site.
It will help separate TWD (medals) from rest of zone activities.
The next step, if time and ability allows could be improving TWD profile pages that would include some kind of "achievements".

- allowing players to be in two rosters although that one is rather controversial with mixed opinions on it. the optimal way of doing this is either to allow players to select an alternate name and allow them to join another roster while including them on a public list on the forums where players can see who is who and where. the other option would be touching the code of our TWD website to allow players to be on two rosters with the same name. the latter one is messy and pretty tough to accomplish with the lack of developers, but the first one would be easy to brute force through if you want to go with that path.

From Qan, the second part where the website would allow players to apply and be on two rosters on the same name is next to impossible.
Where we are with implementing double squadding is indeed a public listing of player's 2 names. => https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...xds/edit#gid=0

That sheet is an example where we decided:
- Roster cap 20
- 15% (of max roster) of roster 1 allowed to move to roster 2, roster 3, roster 4 etc. = 3 players

This way players, while allowed to double squad, can't create a mirror image squad of their original one.
They will also have to approve all their squad movements through a TWD Op.
And last but not least, with roster cap at 20, and the 15% of same players from each squad, some are forced to create a new squad as one or the other restriction will become an obstacle to their joining.
(Read this a few times - Difficult to explain.)

- custom maps, holiday maps, alternate maps (can have up to 5 with TWJD3-7 if i'm not mistaken) and graphics (such as big bullets set as optional for all the players) in certain arenas

As mentioned in the stickied thread, the only limitation to which arenas can be used is in spawn points and for javs the "do not cross" line.
Any map that has those done correct can be used, and a listing could be made available anywhere on site, forum, in-game (bots) or so.

- home arenas for long lasting squads. it wouldn't be too hard to implement that as an option to the bots.

Same as previous

- implementation of some sort of competition for the TWD. you could easily try to set up a TWD cup of sorts and manually run it.

Once player ratings are finished (out of my hands for now), the next step is to possibly run TWD seasons.

- set up meetings that everyone can join to inform the players with the current status of a project or openly discuss them on the forums with separate threads

There's a MessageBot channel for TWD squad captains. I haven't used it and I don't know if anyone has for a while.
But there's enough issue getting staff together to meetings. Find it difficult to believe squad captains would be any different.

I can discuss with individuals when I have the time, and give links and info to what's going on, but that's about it.

- setting changes (spawn radius, radar size, resolution limit poll, bullet alive time) in the arenas

Anyone is free to give feedback regarding any and all changes. I've only heard 1 negative of the spawn radius. With what I've played since the change, it works, and is indeed refreshing.
Resolution limit polls don't work. Not on forums anyway, as less and less players come here. I will get instant feedback from watching and following as the change happens. It's easy enough to go back if deemed extremely game breaking.

- introductory squads ran by TWD operators for the new players

Newb squads attempted left and right, by TWD Operators and players alike. Has failed each time.
Abuse from players double squadding or just not enough time/interest to run the squads.
It shouldn't be on the TWD Operators alone to bring new players in the division. It's in the best interest of us all, so captains should take some of the load as well.

For the record, I never said you were in charge of TWD.

[raizin]

EDIT: Fuck it, whatever. Doesn't matter what I say. Shadow, word of advise. Learn how to communicate with the players and give reasons for things you do/don't do. Even if someone gives a bad idea, explain why you think it's bad. Don't just say 'denied' when players take time to give ideas to help you do your job.

Also, keeping everything the same hasn't worked for 20 years now. Population continues to dwindle and we have zero new players after Steam. Look at the game and realize that keeping things the same hasn't worked. Try something new for once or just admit you have no intentions of ever making TWD better so nobody else wastes their time.

The simple answer for why 2 squads wouldn't work is people on this game hate eachother.

I like Tiny's suggestion of <DT> squads.

Changes have been announced tho, before we bash everyone lets see what happens eh?

[forwards]

Why not just increase the playing population?

[dominate]

Here's an idea:

Instead of letting random people double squad, why not just delete all squads currently in TWD (all 4 of them) and make two giant squads. Problem solved. If you can't find enough people to 3v3 when there are only 2 squads, then what would be the point of double squadding anyways?

Let both squads accept everyone that applies, but make it so that each squad has to be balanced. If one squad has 101 players and the other 100, then the applicant has to join the one with only 100. Okay, I realize 100 players on either squad is drastically over exaggerating based on the current poplation, so think of it more like 20 and 21 players.

See how well that would work. Also, make more assistants so that more people can get games.

you mean pub Freq 0 and Freq 1?

imo squads are what keeps this game alive. people log on and look for their squaddies, and with this idea squads completely loses its identity. However, since Elims are dead, squad-only event excludes newbs or people who are not in competitive squads... I agree that there should be more zone events with stats tracking.

EDIT: Fuck it, whatever. Doesn't matter what I say. Shadow, word of advise. Learn how to communicate with the players and give reasons for things you do/don't do. Even if someone gives a bad idea, explain why you think it's bad. Don't just say 'denied' when players take time to give ideas to help you do your job.

Also, keeping everything the same hasn't worked for 20 years now. Population continues to dwindle and we have zero new players after Steam. Look at the game and realize that keeping things the same hasn't worked. Try something new for once or just admit you have no intentions of ever making TWD better so nobody else wastes their time.

...and I might be slightly offtopic here but the real problem for the lack of player retention is that the subspace community is not the most friendly, let alone newb friendly. I downloaded SS a few days ago after 14-15 years of inactivity and already met with hostility and people pming me crap.

My take is to lighten up, stop being so toxic/salty and help newbs if the goal is to grow the what's left of the community + perhaps more mods to host daily/weekly events?

[forwards]

I downloaded SS a few days ago after 14-15 years of inactivity and already met with hostility and people pming me crap.

LOL I know that feeling. Welcome back though.