Most Kills in Spider All-Time

[ogron]

Most Kills in Spider All-Time


I get asked this question quite a lot, so I'm making a comprehensive post. Most kills does not mean best play, this is just for fun. I've split these scores into 6 lists.

1) 8v8
The gold standard is 8v8 games played with modern settings (June 2004 to present). Every TWLB season except 2003 and 2004 use these settings, along with TWDT-B and TWBD.
2) 7v7
Played with modern settings (June 2004 to present). It is easier to get high scores in 7v7.. You get a bigger share of the shark kills and it's harder to cram so there's more flagroom battles.
3) 6v6
Played with modern settings (June 2004 to present). It is much easier to get high scores in 6v6. You get a way bigger share of the shark kills and it's harder to cram so there's more flagroom battles.
4) Old Settings
Points Race where every game is 30 minutes long and players have shorter death timers, meaning way more kills. Only 18 months of boxscores are available (December 2002 to May 2004).
5) Myths & Legends
Campfire stories told by old timers about legendary spider games they witnessed before records were kept (2000 to 2003).
6) Combined
A combined list featuring adjusted scores from every category

You can find the full, searchable document here.


8v8

The gold standard is 8v8 games played with modern settings (June 2004 to present). Every TWLB season except 2003 and 2004 use these settings, along with TWDT-B and TWBD.

Green = TWBD
Blue = TWDT-B
Red = TWLB




7v7
Played with modern settings (June 2004 to present). It is easier to get high scores in 7v7.. You get a bigger share of the shark kills and it's harder to cram so there's more flagroom battles.
6v6
Played with modern settings (June 2004 to present). It is much easier to get high scores in 6v6. You get a way bigger share of the shark kills and it's harder to cram so there's more flagroom battles.




Old Settings
Points Race where every game is 30 minutes long and players have shorter death timers, meaning way more kills. Only 18 months of boxscores are available (December 2002 to May 2004).
Myths & Legends
Campfire stories told by old timers about legendary spider games they witnessed before records were kept (2000 to 2003).




Combined

I'm using the 15/25/35 Rule. A quick rule of thumb for comparing games to 8v8 games with the current settings is substract -15 kills from 7v7 scores, -25 kills from 6v6 scores, and -35 kills from Old Settings scores. Scores from different settings probably shouldn't be contrasted, but given that people's curiosity inevitably leads to comparison, this is how I would do it.

You could go 10/20/30 if you're generous or 20/30/40 if conservative - I've chosen the middle ground.

10/25/40 would also be a decent split. Feel free to make your own combined list with the Google Docs sheet provided to find a solution you like.

This is my own subjective weighting, and not scientific.




F.A.Q.


Why are there so many 8v8 records in 2020?

Borrowing.

I'd guess 1 in every 4 BDs in the ten years prior to 2019 was 8v8. That means you have a +300% chance to set an 8v8 relative to prior years.

Borrowing also creates natural parity. When both teams have 6 players in, there's a natural human tendency to borrow a low-star player if your line looks way better, and vice-versa (and a tendency to deny borrows that decrease parity) to complete your line. This pushes more games towards 30 minutes, increasing the amount of record-setting games.

In TWDT, there used to be one season (7 games long), and maybe 2 of those games would approach 30 minutes. Now there's over 40 games per year, and the Star Cap's artificial parity means something like 20 of those games will go the distance. So your odds of putting up a big score in TWDT-B has gone up 2000%.

Now, factor in Mythril brought back half the zone in 2019 and then turbocharge it with Covid in 2020 with multiple arenas running TWBDs 8 hours a day for a year straight, and you've got the best TWBD and TWDT-B conditions to set records in the game's history (under modern settings.)

When you look at the Combined list, the amount of 2020 games within the distribution normalize because this phenomenon is exclusive to 8v8 games, and now we're including 7v7, 6v6, and Points Race games.

Also, keep in mind that even within this fertile ground, only cripple and ro have gotten scores above 157 in 2019 and 2020.

Elite spiders hitting 140-155 kills in games, while impressive, isn't exactly earth-shattering.



Did someone really hit 200 kills in a game?

Yes.

We only have a 1.5 year sample of the Points Race era boxscores (which lasted 4.5 years) and there's nearly a hundred 170+ kill games. There's too many credible witnesses, so even though there's no evidence, their word is absolutely good enough. And Lunch3 in that 18 month sample hit 192, 193, and 195 kills. Pretty hard to believe nobody would hit 200 in those 3 years we don't have records of.

If you're asking who actually hit 200 kills... I have no idea. Likely some combination of the players listed in the Myths & Legends section.


How much impact did the Old Settings have on recs?

A lot.

lunch3 hit 195 and 192 kills in the first half of 2004. After the settings changed around June 2004, his high score was 159 (and not an 8v8 game). Keep in mind he won a TWLB championship on Penetrate in 2009 and is one of the best spiders to ever play. He never hit 160 under the current settings, and his prime extended across both eras.

TWLB Season 6 in 2003 was played under the Old Settings (points race, shorter death timers), and TWLB Season 7 in 2004 was played under the current settings (timed race, 5s death timers). You can see the difference in scores the settings made:



There's nearly a hundred 170+ kill games in the Old Settings list -- and that dataset only includes 1.5 years of games!

We have a 17 year dataset under the Current Settings, and there's only 3 players who have ever hit 170+ (cripple, shayde, and ro).

[Jones]

Bliz and spybreak! were close to hit 200 if my memory serves me right.

[ogron]

Bliz and spybreak! were close to hit 200 if my memory serves me right.

Yeah that's what I heard from others as well!

[Efhat]

Wow. Here I was thinking I was no where near lunch3 in kills. Thanks for this Oggie, incredible work.

[Stayon]

Wow. Here I was thinking I was no where near lunch3 in kills. Thanks for this Oggie, incredible work.

The same way my best scores were on the old setting days, being a full on over spider, no surprise I barely show up in high kill games after years of undering in good bds and high end twlb matches for the vast majority of time to help the team on a different way.

To compliment on my main King Cuban, the same way you'd show up way more on the old stats if you were as good as you became, during those early years.

You and Lunch are the two most dominant spiders in killing ability, in skill and consistency, and you are on another level compared to Lunch. On just an MVP sense to purely dominate and clutch games (top bar / under / cram, teks, 1vs1 skirmishes, correct movement, correct choosing of right order of klls and where to die, and number kills), in high end matches, Mega was the strongest spider to ever play this game (season 8 - 13), for me atleast, but both you and me know this. Meg is Meg.

Edit : Another good comment I'm forced to throw in, but I've seen a big number of clueless people, or jealous of your killing ability and eventual sucess with it, to say you were not the best spider in the game. Opinions are cool, but sometimes silence is a blessing. These were mostly due to people saying you camped, and not being the best in 1vs1. Whilst most of the time you do play a more passive racking kills style, no one does it like you did. That, and theres a huge difference between trolling in bds, and playoff game time.

Proof of that is exactly the records shown here on Claus list. The vast majority of yours are just "simple" 2-1 KD records, some of them aren´t even 2-1, meaning you were showing a more agressive side in order to get those kills. That, and I know that you changed your game style when it mattered. Looking at some records here, it's obvious some were done in trollish games, or in long games vs weaker spider lines, hence why there's quite a few 3-1 KD records or close, some done even by non usual spiders. The missconception over the years, that spiders became more pushy or agressive as always been wrong. People were way more agressive back in the day as the records show it. The difference is, pushes over the years, became more...concerted and organized. Spiders overall are actually more campy.

I believe after that period, you became the #1 spider in the game for your sheer killing ability alone.

Albeit people like Mega, Myself, Spezza topped you in (top bar, under, 1vs1, and IQ), you still have a big basing IQ and your killing ability was for the most part just undeniable dominant to ignore, regardless of who you played with or against. Then you also had Domi, who was by far the best spider in KD by far (only guy to 3:1 in lb finals) and probably the most gracious spider movement i've seen. Kinda like Ease's prime jav. And he did it whenever he wanted, with ease against anyone in a period everyone was so active and he was playing more and more live poker and still just showed on sundays to rape TWLB. And JAM for his historic consistency, winning it in different periods, with always a huge IQ and killing ability. Those would be my first 6, in no real order, besides Meg.

Then people like, Sika / Ease (legends, although Ease showed up later for spider) Shayde/Sarger (Pandora's best), Kronian (Thundermare) was kinda like Domi, and my spider icon if you're curious, Lunch/Royst/Trasher/Davy (Penetraste's best), Holydude( AS's beacon) Koan (WR and Pallies legend, one of the best old timers), Don't try to resist (played 2-3 seasons winning the first one, the first KD spider god, and better than Spybreak! who also played that style, when people were so pushy back then), Bliz (could of been huge, if he played more, dueled alot in priv arena with him) and Ezo (probably the best spider in the game, and biggest mvper from 2000 to 2002), all have a word in this deparment.

Also note to Kate Upton's and my brother's under, Saiyan's skill (IQ and very strong 1vs1), Ro's killing ability and one of my personal favourites, Nuudeli.

-----------

To add a bit more to your thread Claus, a few notes.

- I'll disagree parcially on 2020 basing. Although Jan-May was super active (one of the reasons I returned and got hooked up), seeing 2 bds at the same time, for the most part yes, borrowing in theory works well and the majority are close, but there's still alot of shitty ass games with completly unbalanced lines, or better yet, with predicatable winners, in which the fault lays on all squads and A's that play twbd. My opinion is biased as I also don't do any lineups these days, so I'm just an observer.

Yes, in the past there were 6vs6 and 7vs7's as people tried their best to get their squaddies to play, but overall there were just more base games in number (two arenas being played, go base, and generally more basers). Your 300% chanse to setup games is probably correct, just think overall the were more games in number, people's interest was completly different for the best, and people's skill peaks, which matter the most, as nearly 95% of us were better players back in the day. The mental part on these plays a big part, and most of us already streched our lifespan to the most we could, it's only normal for most to have had their peaks eventually in the past.

That and people like Wix, Utopia, PJ or some non common spider names, or Lupin this year, show up here and there as these high kill games, are basicly a flow that you get into, One that is not visible, but it has always existed in base. Miss the flow, and everyone takes 1 extra shot to die. Has nothing to do with lag (despite laggier TWL/TWDT times), but explains people's yapping in this arena, without fully compreending what's going on. It's not exactly just on skill, most can actually do it, if they find the rythm! Lupin clearly saw it this year.

- TWDT provides an easier context to get high kills, hence why so many appear on the list. Despite it's competitiveness, it still has TWBD feel to it, in which weaker spiders can be exploited for easy kills. Thats why TWLB matches are apparantly rare on the list. The correlation with it's difficulty and meaning is clear.

- Lupin, had a 170 game in twbd earlier this year for Spastic, so he joins Crip and Ro on that mark.

- The kill difference between old and new settings you chose, i'ts about that. If you want to be extremely specific, I'd say those extra 2 seconds you spend in spawn over a lenght of a match, resulted in less 20/30 kills, compared to the old settings. People's spider twd average, went from 100/110/120, to 70/80/90.

- I didn't remember for sure besides Wix, but I think I can voice for Cig's and Fit's on Utopia and Pearl Jam. I think these 2 also did, 90%. Koan, Spybreak and Ezo extremely likely (more than the other 3 realisticly) to have done it as well if they are being noted for it, just not sure myself with my memory.

Edit: Noticed I meantioned about 24 names on the first part of the post, give that I could always take 5 or 10 out, or better yet, add another 10 or 15 names that would deserve my mention, even if for just one deparment. Spidering is hard to rank and there's way too many skill peaks and different periods.I thought on doing these half-biased basing list on all 3 ships, top 25 terrs, top 40 sharks, top 10 specials and top 100 spiders, the most well done I could do. Easily can name 100, but it's hard to fit everyone by order as it would be incredibly subjective, so I kinda gave up on the idea and saved that time. Maybe another future day with more patience.

[Turban]

It is worth mentioning that old settings also had random damage for bullets which added a lot of variance for kills. The damage range for red bullets was roughly between 270 and 770 damage. In the end high kill games, while definitely impressive in their own right, rarely have a large impact on the game and in many cases players who play for the score end up hampering their team. These types of players tend to have close to no impact in a game when facing a stronger opponent, but on the other hand they also flourish when they are on the stronger side and all the stars align correctly. There are obviously exceptions as some of these players are capable of adapting their style of play, and I do sincerely believe that each team could use a janitor to clean up kills in the back.

I prefer spiders with high basing IQ who are able to make several game-changing proactive plays on the fly as they are the ones that change the tide of a battle. In my personal opinion several of the top-level spiders tend to have a huge problem when it comes to tunnel visioning which lowers their overall value to a team as they are not fast enough to react to subtle changes or events happening during in a basing match. There are only a handful well-rounded and truly great spiders playing these days.

It would be quite hard to make an accurate ranking list for spiders as there are so many different categories to rank players in based on role and style of play.

[Vehicle]

Stayon Thanks for that read! What a great and thoughtful post and one hell of a walk down memory lane! I disagree a little bit about Domi (imho, a lot of his skill did actually come from the fact that he was one of the laggiest players in the zone in an era with much harsher lag limits), but I think you're mostly spot on! I'm glad guys like lunch3, koan, Spybreak! and ezo are still remembered. Guys like Ezo, arrogrance, brookus, paul_oakenfold, Holydude etc. were amazing in their day but didn't play on top-tier squads. May we never forget.

Turban I couldn't agree more. Stayon's right when he says spiders camp more than they did back in the day. I think, by and large, team dynamic and game IQ matters less to people now than in the past and K : D matters more. Even the campiest old-school spiders, Spybreak for example, don't hold a candle to today's notorious campers.

[Rab]

fun stats, I still crush u all tho

[Stayon]

It would be quite hard to make an accurate ranking list for spiders as there are so many different categories to rank players in based on role and style of play.

Exactly why I got cold feet on doing such a list. I could still do it, but it will just be a subjective one. Roles, style and skill peaks on certain periods of time would determine such a list.

I've seen top 50's for wbs and javs in the past but not really for basing, despite these recent data posts of Claus, Rage and whoever.

I think I'll still do it eventually, but I'll start with sharks, terrs and specials first for sure.

Random damage was also a factor ye.

And I also share your preferences in terms of spiders. Despite Spezz's obvious skill, and relating to twlb finals, I've beat him once or twice (depending when he started for panda, memory failing a bit), lost once in that illustrious never ending flag game (althought a deserved loss), won once with him and lost once with him (Dudgeon seasons), hes clearly my fetish spider out of the dice ones. The reason is mostly his huge similarity with myself and mega, just on playstyle alone.

At the same time, any team should have a janitor, or camper. The same way Henry Saari is usually said to suck, well, he's Jessup's basing version in a way, stubborn and clearly cuckoo in the head, as hes holding down DSB with grace. Regardless, he's probably better than the vast majority of the ones who say that. His sheer killing ability, is better than most good spiders, and on a good spider setup, he can thrive. Went things go south, his detrimental style and play options get exposed. So that opinion on him for the most part exagerated, although not incorrect.

And huge mistake on my part, whilst more recent, I clearly forgot to add you to those 24 names. You went frong being a good pusher from your Pirates times, to an 'obnoxious' spider monster in recent years, due to your pure skills, along with Crip and Ro the best killers of these last current days. Kinda like Ease, would have had a tiny more relevancy in basing in the old days, if he chose to do so (around 9/10 he started to play basing more consistently I believe).

Rab The old you was much better by the way, your Mambo version and nickname

Vehicle No problem G, I have fun myself mentioning old names. Just to add a bit more on Domi, I believe that's partially correct but only on his season 5 to season 9 period, where he mostly sharked for Light and -FINAL-. Around that season, harsher lag limits, were imposed (also CE restrictions), and laggy team's records like Light's 10-0 with Domi's, FBZ's and 2dragons (the worst), stopped being possible. Also think he was overall the best baser during that period, in all 3 main ships and he was also a top base jav on par with Nockm, PJ and 2dragons. Season 10-16, he played 3 with us (winning those 3 as spider), aliased once in Pene I think and skipped the other two until he MIA'd. His lag wasn't the same during those years. After Domi, I believe Necro became the best overall baser in all ships at top level (season 10-14), then we had a gap of someone being clearly the best overall in all ships from about until about season 20 and these days it's Turb.

KD wise yea Veh, just think overall the pushes these days are more well oriented when they happen, players fly closer a bit better, and cornering / angles / shark shrap are big concerns these days.

On the old days, that 2000-2005 era will always be the best period of the game in all aspects, interest, players, skill peaks, people's time to play, and most of us at most were good at one ship or still barely had any playoff experience, so basicly still youngbloods. The old names that gave us "wow" moments, will always be those old names, in all fairdom and respect to them. You had people like PL going 60ish-5 in TWLB finals, and if anyone would ask about it, given the vast majority of his troll 'career', people would think it's a joke. Brookus exactly the same, thing when he's probably the best defensive terr to have had played when on his prime. Many others who 'cameback" after brief stops were just not the same, and this phenomenon happened in dueling leagues as well.

[zidane]

cool list. I definitely don't think you can rank spids based off kills though like turb mentioned. similar to RPD with sharks, just not indicative of performance. however it does highlight poor performance in situations of obvious low kill/RPD games.

[ogron]

Stayon thanks for the in-depth response!

i'll try to comment to a few things:

The same way my best scores were on the old setting days, being a full on over spider, no surprise I barely show up in high kill games after years of undering in good bds and high end twlb matches for the vast majority of time to help the team on a different way.

Yeah, it's just a list of most kills, it is not intended as a 'Best Spider' post in any way.

To compliment on my main King Cuban, the same way you'd show up way more on the old stats if you were as good as you became, during those early years.

You and Lunch are the two most dominant spiders in killing ability, in skill and consistency, and you are on another level compared to Lunch

I agree. I think Cripple is the best killing spider of all-time. I see him disrespected a lot and it seems crazy to me. You can try to rec all day long and just get as many kills as possible ignoring best play and never hit 160 in an 8v8 BD over 20 years. 6 people have hit 160 in 8v8 games in 17 years. 3 people have hit 170 (cripple, ro, and shayde), and they hit 170 on the dot.

cripple has 8 scores above 170 in 8v8 modern settings. and 195 kill games in 6v6 and 7v7.

now, is he playing optimally to win outside of TWLB playoffs? no. i've seen him and shayde milk a lot of BDs LOL. but he definitely turns it on and plays more pushy and aggressive when it matters.

i do find non-basers in spec slobbering over cripple's kills annoying because it implies most kills = best play, which isn't true and disrespects spiders who always play to help the team win. cripple is up there, but i feel like mega89, spezza, stayon, ease, turban, and maybe 1-2 others impact winning a bit more in different roles, although most of them also have the benefit of insane lag. either way, cripple has won 4 TWLBs and 2 TWDT-Bs, he's proven his value repeatedly.

- TWDT provides an easier context to get high kills, hence why so many appear on the list. Despite it's competitiveness, it still has TWBD feel to it, in which weaker spiders can be exploited for easy kills. Thats why TWLB matches are apparantly rare on the list. The correlation with it's difficulty and meaning is clear.

Agreed. The Star Cap system is not my favorite. The TWDT-B games from 2011-2018 had the optimal feel, probably something closest to early TWLB with 16 teams and more parity and spread out talent where you have 5-6 TWLB playoff basers, and 2-3 lower star players who are still decent. Those playoff games were high quality without going full TWLB Finals, while remaining way above the current TWDT-B Star Cap system lines of only 3 TWLB Playoff level players in a line and 5 others.

The current TWDT seems much closer to TWBD, like you said (although definitely challenging if you're playing as a 10*).

- Lupin, had a 170 game in twbd earlier this year for Spastic, so he joins Crip and Ro on that mark.

He does not, that was a 7v7 game. He's on the 7v7 list and the Combined list. You can see the boxscore here.

I've seen top 50's for wbs and javs in the past but not really for basing

I've posted a Top 100 Baser list a few times. It's more of a 'Best Career' sorting, for lack of a better word. I think that's better, because rating someone on skill is somewhat subjective. Also, it's like giving out awards for smartest person. If someone has 190 IQ, solves 1 equation in physics, then retires, and Einstein has 189 IQ, and his body of accomplishments is massive, you're going to rate the other guy higher? Doesn't make sense. Should rate what people have done, not what you think they theoretically could do.

It's what you do with that skill that matters. Just rating someone for a 1 year peak implies they would have maintained that level every year consistently, which they didn't prove. We have no idea how they would have done over a longer period, and in different circumstances. the hype around some players who were good for 1-2 years is insane. people mythologize them so hard. If JAMAL had retired after winning TWLB s6, he'd probably somehow have more hype than he does now, even though being an incredible multi-ship baser over 18 years and winning 4 TWLB titles and 3 TWDT-Bs is way more impressive.

I guess that's just how the human mind works, though. There's a tendency to glorify the past.

- The kill difference between old and new settings you chose, i'ts about that. If you want to be extremely specific, I'd say those extra 2 seconds you spend in spawn over a lenght of a match, resulted in less 20/30 kills, compared to the old settings. People's spider twd average, went from 100/110/120, to 70/80/90.

Yeah, you have it at -30 kills, I have it at -35. I think we're pretty close on the number!

[Poseidon]

i liked ur post mr papi and find the whole discussion very tittylating.

i noticed also when watching finals from older seasons that spiders seemed, as a whole, more aggro and not as focused on their individual record as it feels today. their movement represented more of a hive-like choesive unit reacting all in tandem as oppsed to the lobsterfied times of the present. perhaps less accurate aim tho, on the whole. i also felt while watching that teams from today, like my basing cup team is what i was imagining most, would crush any of these teams, an opinion which i attribute mostly to sharkers, which appears vastly improved in the modern era.

these older videos show sharks that will hesitate, wait, move backwards, etc. they are obviously more preoccupied with keeping time as opposed to hitting openings... making space... being quick off the terr... reppng opponent sharks at such an angle that even if u leave a timing gap the enemy shark wont be in a position to take advantage, etc etc. the (handful of) best sharks today have better learned how to maximize space-creation by sometimes sacrificing gaps in timing but only ones in which the terr is still safe regardless. this newer meta of sharking appears to be what enables these “concerted pushes” you speak of that differ from past playstyles, and it is this aspect of modern play that leads me to the belief that the best teams of the past would not be able to handle those same of today.

also ill take a good DoAK:death ratio than K ratio anyday. all hail DoAK! now lets get total dmg done to terr!

[Nipple Nibbler]

On the topic of more high-kill games in DT instead of LB here is my theory why.

I think it is a combination of two factors.

1) sharks: in LB you generally have two really good sharks who time well and repel a lot of shit away that in DT wouldn't get repped.

2) spiders: You also have better overall spider energy management, that turns into spiders living longer and dying less and utilizing their sharks repels better overall. In DT you get a lot of braindead spiders that mindlessly fly around clueless collecting bullets thanks to (like Ogron said) the star cap. I am still in favour of star caps for DT though.