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**Annux** · 10-14-2002, 04:37 PM

Annux> ?help the AARP won't let me be, won't let me see, won't let me Epi

**Plut0nium** · 10-14-2002, 04:59 PM

agreed epi, i think the leagues need to be a little shorter. speaking of which, what's next, TWT? anyone know when that starts? :/

**Webbb Llama v1.5** · 10-14-2002, 05:33 PM

Wow Epi those are really really creative ideas. I think you're dead on with the "less room we give the hosts to mess up the better the league" philosophy. And getting more player refs sounds good unless suddenly there are more regular staff who aren't afk all of the time.

**Divine Rides** · 10-14-2002, 05:50 PM

1.) TWLB Map adjustment:

I don't know if it really matters, all the filler space you talked about- if that somehow affects lag, maybe.
I would recommend opening up the structure and tunnel's enterance a touch.

4.) I am ABSOLUTELY AGAINST taking out greens in TWLD and TWLJ. They add a lot to the game- there's always that desperate moment when you know you're fucked, but you fish tail into that last green and... FULL CHARGE!! Sweet Jebus yes!
LEave THE GREENS!

5.) Lag subs- you make good points- I don't know what the right thing to do is, maybe just have 2 subs, but we've definitely been screwed by this rule because of unexpected lag.

6.) player refs- yes. yes. yes. And non ERs need to be able to start up the private basing bots.

8.) this isn't the kind of game where there can be "proper" divisions- either random or preseason gaming to decide

9.) Absolutely. I don't know how or why or what- but absolutely.

**Jonas** · 10-14-2002, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by Epinephrine
1) Decrease the size of the outside for TWLB.

Currently, the area outside of the base is quite large. What if we had it so that everything "north" of the base entrance on the outside were just cut off. And everything behind the starting safety zones were cut off as well, and large sections of the bottom. This I believe would help as a passive stop for people from running. This is mostly cause it is very hard to make rules about running, as they will be enforced unevenly by different hosts.

I doubt that decreasing the size outside the base will change anything. Running in TWL-B is not a real factor anyway. I've only seen a squad run once in a TWL-B game. Also some squads still use the roof javelin strategy.

Originally posted by Epinephrine
2) Decrease the size of the outside for TWLJ.

The outside would be made smaller.. not so small as to let spawning happen consistantly, but small enough. Again for the same reasons.

Good idea, however, I think a baseelim style "go to base" would be better. Also, I think we should get the bot to check for spawn kills. It can't be that hard? Or? Have the bot check if the killed player was outside the base (check in a similar way as in baseelim) and if he/she was outside, give an extra life to that player.

Originally posted by Epinephrine
3) Make it so that replacement squads cannot possibly enter playoffs.

The other possibility is to make it so they start 0-x (x being number of games they missed). This is to prevent squads that just entered and got "free wins" like last season to enter playoffs over established squads that played all season.

Yes. I think the way it was done two seasons ago was really good. Squads were allowed to enter late, but they started from scratch. So lets say a squad gets 5 wins and 5 losses, and another squad gets 6 wins and 0 losses, 4 games less because they entered late - then they should be allowed to enter the playoffs.... Like X-Wing did two seasons ago.

Originally posted by Epinephrine
4) Remove all greens from TWLJ and TWLD.

The fact is, the more people who watch a game, the more greens there are. This is an intrinsic fact of SS I believe and it cannot be changed. Greens promote full charges, and full charges promote fluke kills, esp since greens have a tendency to lag on different people's computers and thus be invisible. Should games be decided on such a random factor? I think not.

I agree, remove the greens, or at least remove the full charges.

Originally posted by Epinephrine
5) Lagsubs. Allow more than the current 1 sub if someone's connection goes poof mid-way though the game.

Lots of details to be worked out such as what score would these subs have? What if a player quis on purpose and pretends it's lag (or broken computer) near the end of game to preserve a small lead?

Allow unlimited subs, but limit lagouts to 1and lower the ping and packetloss limit. If a player lags out and the squad cannot replace him/her. If I got my will (which I obviously won't, but I'm going to type it anyway) a player should be allowed to lag out once, then if that player lags out again, the player should be considered eliminated, and removed with 10 deaths. The way I see it, if a player lags out once, he/she knows the connection is unstable, so why allow the player to continue playing? If you let the player continue to play, then don't allow a sub after lagging out. So if the player takes that chance, and continues to play with an unstable connection, he/she will be penalized if the lagouts continue.

The same should apply to TWL-B. Except shipsets has to stay the same as the initial setup. Allow players to sub but limit lagouts. This would definately put an end to issues like 2dragons' lag problem, where he keeps lagging out every two minutes.

Originally posted by Epinephrine
6) Player refs? Opening up bots so that specially recruited players can act as TWL refs (but have no actual power so they are not TW staff).

Might be helpful in getting games started, might not be supported by the staff anyway. Either way a possibility.

A good idea, however, keep working on the bot located in private basing and hosts will soon be obsolete.

Originally posted by Epinephrine
7) Single elimination playoffs?

Just cause this season playoffs went on for 6 weeks. Single elimination would of made it 3 weeks.

Agreed, the playoffs took way too long.

Originally posted by Epinephrine
8) Ranking of squads to make proper conferences/divisions for regular season.

Use TWD? Last season stats? A pre-season ranking tourney?

Yes, use last seasons stats. This would encourage squads to stay together for more than one season at a time. A lot of squads keep almost the same player base, but change their name, so make a rule saying: "Last season stats will only be kept if squadname is the same as last season." Using TWD stats wouldn't be fair because a lot of squads will want to use TWD to test new strategies, new lineups etc. This applies especially to basing. A pre-season ranking tourney would be good aswell, but I fear that it would take too long, also it would not encourage squads to stay together like using last season stats would.

Originally posted by Epinephrine
9) Prizes and Trophies. i.e. MVP for each league, or each ship in TWLB.

Ever been to hockey zone (or watch the NHL:P). What kind of trophies would you like to see? How should selection be (pure stats, captain vote, player vote).

Would be great. Some of the trophies could be player with most kills, best ratio, and season MVP. As for the basing league you could have a season MVP for each ship. Staff could hand out a prize, we could have a player voted "dreamteam" etc.

Originally posted by Divine Rides
1.) TWLB Map adjustment:

I don't know if it really matters, all the filler space you talked about- if that somehow affects lag, maybe.
I would recommend opening up the structure and tunnel's enterance a touch.

Use the exact same base as in public. Change only the tileset, but do not allow "marked" tiles of any sort. Keep them clean.

**Divine Rides** · 10-14-2002, 07:16 PM

I will lead a people's revolution if you remove greens.

**Sleepy Weasel** · 10-14-2002, 07:20 PM

3. 0-x sounds good. Not being allowed to enter playoffs at all doesn't sound good

4. Greens are a great part of the strategy of the game, and well we're all just used to them. So generally I'm all with Divine on this one. HOWEVER, after seeing the Light vs Siege match which had so many spectators that greens were just everywhere, I think something has to be done about that. But unfortunately I can't give any good advice on how to keep greens in the game without them getting out of control for the big matches.

**Epinephrine** · 10-14-2002, 08:27 PM

Just to be clear...

Unlimited subs won't work well. The reason is because in TW kills happen very fast, and there are 10 lives. If you have more than 1-2 subs, then it gets VERY hard for players to keep track of targets and so on. If you have 5 subs, then it ruins almost any game strategy. This is especially true because the refs will also have to keep track, and refs are always late (forgetful) in telling how many lives a player has left.

About greens. I agree they are part of the game, but the problem is that greens are people and lag dependent. I'm sure many of you have played, chasing an enemy who just shot at you. Suddenly they shoot again and kill you. You go "wtf" and they go "got a green" even though you saw no green on your screen.

This IMO ruins league, and ruins the pure form of competition that league should represent. As well the more specs there are, the more greens there are. So well attended games (meaning the MOST IMPORTANT GAMES) will be affected the most by random greens.

Finally the reason why last season stats might not be the best for ranking (I know I put it up there) is because so many great squads disbanded last season and so many new squads are here. If we use those rankings, it might completely screw up the rankings once we allow the new squads into TWL to fill in the holes.

-Epi
P.S. Thanks for replying and keep them coming

**Mayo Inc.** · 10-14-2002, 08:58 PM

Re: What do you guys think?

Originally posted by Epinephrine
Hey guys,

I have a few ideas for TWL I was wondering what you guys thought about them. Please answer to each idea separately instead of writing a jumble of a paragraph. I would appreciate it if you would leave out all discussions of staff incompetence LAST SEASON or OTHER ideas not specifically covered here as no brainer ideas don't need to be discussed cause the staff is already aware :P. Thanks.

---------
1) Decrease the size of the outside for TWLB.

Currently, the area outside of the base is quite large. What if we had it so that everything "north" of the base entrance on the outside were just cut off. And everything behind the starting safety zones were cut off as well, and large sections of the bottom. This I believe would help as a passive stop for people from running. This is mostly cause it is very hard to make rules about running, as they will be enforced unevenly by different hosts.
---------
2) Decrease the size of the outside for TWLJ.

The outside would be made smaller.. not so small as to let spawning happen consistantly, but small enough. Again for the same reasons.
----------
NOTE: 1) and 2) can be eliminated if a baseelim style "go to base!" were added to the bot.
-----------
3) Make it so that replacement squads cannot possibly enter playoffs.

The other possibility is to make it so they start 0-x (x being number of games they missed). This is to prevent squads that just entered and got "free wins" like last season to enter playoffs over established squads that played all season.
-----------
4) Remove all greens from TWLJ and TWLD.

The fact is, the more people who watch a game, the more greens there are. This is an intrinsic fact of SS I believe and it cannot be changed. Greens promote full charges, and full charges promote fluke kills, esp since greens have a tendency to lag on different people's computers and thus be invisible. Should games be decided on such a random factor? I think not.
-----------
5) Lagsubs. Allow more than the current 1 sub if someone's connection goes poof mid-way though the game.

Lots of details to be worked out such as what score would these subs have? What if a player quis on purpose and pretends it's lag (or broken computer) near the end of game to preserve a small lead?
------------
6) Player refs? Opening up bots so that specially recruited players can act as TWL refs (but have no actual power so they are not TW staff).

Might be helpful in getting games started, might not be supported by the staff anyway. Either way a possibility.
-------------
7) Single elimination playoffs?

Just cause this season playoffs went on for 6 weeks. Single elimination would of made it 3 weeks.
--------------
8) Ranking of squads to make proper conferences/divisions for regular season.

Use TWD? Last season stats? A pre-season ranking tourney?
--------------
9) Prizes and Trophies. i.e. MVP for each league, or each ship in TWLB.

Ever been to hockey zone (or watch the NHL:P). What kind of trophies would you like to see? How should selection be (pure stats, captain vote, player vote).
--------------

A concerned TWL Captain,
-Epinephrine

1. I dunno too much about this one and wasnt aware that running was a huge problem in twlb

2. Agreed, but whats to stop a team from invading the spawn area to finish of their opponents with quick spawns?

3. As a captain of a former replacement squad I have to disagree. Everyone deserves a shot at least of making it into the playoffs. My solution would be to fill in the vacant spots with other squad already in the league for example

Squad A is 5-5 and in 5th place and drops out. Squad B, the squad below them, takes their 5-5 record, the squad below squad B takes theirs, and so on and so forth. So the new squad starts in last place, but takes the record of the last place (be it 0-10 or otherwise)

4. Nah I like em

5. I agree, two subs or maybe (MAYBE) three would be good for TWLD and LJ.

6. That sounds like a good idea, do you mean like a representative from each squad or something else?

7. This is a no brainer. Double elimination sucks.

8. Pre-Season Tourny

9. Also a good idea.. can't see anything wrong with it.

I'd also like to ad an idea:

Replace the current TWL op with Mr. Epinephrine. Seriously.

**Jonas** · 10-14-2002, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by Epinephrine
Unlimited subs won't work well. The reason is because in TW kills happen very fast, and there are 10 lives. If you have more than 1-2 subs, then it gets VERY hard for players to keep track of targets and so on.If you have 5 subs, then it ruins almost any game strategy.

Explain, I don't know anything about dueling.

Originally posted by Epinephrine
This is especially true because the refs will also have to keep track, and refs are always late (forgetful) in telling how many lives a player has left.

Not if you have a bot handling it - like we do now in private basing.

**Epinephrine** · 10-14-2002, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by Jonas
Not if you have a bot handling it - like we do now in private basing.

True is it good if a bot is handling it.

Okay here's the explaination. TWLJ and TWLD is 10 lives each, 5 players right?

So if you have a sub for someone who went 0-5 say. Currently the enemy team can go like "ahh he went 0-5, so target that sub". And they can keep track of the 0-5 guy easy. If there's two subs, it's slightly harder but still possible to keep track.

Now think if there were 3 subs. the first sub had 5 lives, the 2nd sub had 6 lives, and the third sub had 2 lives.

You can see how this quickly becomes very confusing for the players, and ruins team strategy which in TWLJ/TWLD means target the guy with low deaths to get him out so that you can get a player advantage.

That's why the more subs you have, the harder it is to play.

Yes bots can make it run smoother, but it still won't make it intuitively better for players (and no having a command where players can query the bot about player lives isn't a good option cause it would lag the bot, and be hard for the players to do and still concentrate).

-Epi

**death row** · 10-15-2002, 03:03 AM

postive on greens is.. it keeps players more alert the whole time. never knowing when your opponent stumbles on to a green. but at the same time.. by eliminating the greens it allows the players to play the game at its natural pace. no "freak" recharge out of nowhere. but i dunno, interesting topic to say the least

**Eeks** · 10-15-2002, 03:40 AM

Originally posted by Divine Rides
1.) TWLB Map adjustment:

I don't know if it really matters, all the filler space you talked about- if that somehow affects lag, maybe.
I would recommend opening up the structure and tunnel's enterance a touch.

You don't like it tight?

**warportal** · 10-15-2002, 04:24 AM

A well-defined laglimit. I know that the arena sets spec people from 7% ploss and more. I'd like to see that come down to 5% or maybe less.

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