player input on twl changes

[Jones]

all right guys. im not a twl op or anything but we as players should putin (see what i did there) ideas on ideas to improve for next season.
mine are:

-making sure hosts are properly trained (lag, manual hosting, etc.)
-eligiblity system is flawed. i say roster should be locked from saturday to sunday and be open the rest of the week. then a hard lock could take place somewhere in week 6 (assuming there are 8 teams) no other locks. (this is mainly for dev and it shouldn't be here, but is a simple bot command made by the twl op whether rosters are locked or not easily doable?)
-time slots. i'm euro, 4 pm est is too late for me. i have managed so far, but what about pushing it further? what about 8 pm est? most of the guys playing are in north america anyway
-a complete change to the rules? opinions?
-twld resolution. i say we should keep it at 1280x1024. a good compromise was given the other day to me by upster... by trying no limit out in the main twdd arena, while keeping a limit on the others. everyone good already knows to shift to a new arena, while new players can use their max reso pretty much everywhere they want/know about. collect data, see if there is a big demand for it. make a decision. (more for twd ops though)

pls post your opinions on what features should or should not be added, try to refrain from bashing or suggesting bot features in this thread, we could make one for the dev team too.

also, a big thanks to reckful and twl ops who made sure to spend their free time on this.
thank you, kindly, sincerely,
jones

[Reckful]

Good ideas jones I already planned to compile a list of things I've seen this season as well to get looked at. There are alot of changes in store for next season and hopefully more success in getting the public involved in them. Perhaps the Council will help facilitate that as well.

[Rule]

Regarding Leagues:

- Make a TWD Cup. Or at the very least create some tournaments or smaller league playoffs competitions that are TWD based. Currently there is no structure, goals or achievements to achieve in TWD. No one is competing for anything. To have nothing to compete for between April-December does not help the growth and development of the leagues. This is crucial.

- Do whatever it takes to get programmers involved who can ensure the bot core is as stable as it can be. Thank them publicly for their time and effort. Pay them if we can get a genuine TW donation fund established.

- Recruit more staff, train them thoroughly on how to run league events, deal with lag issues and support head ops. Post the titles and positions of staff so players in the zone know who’s who.

- Set a clear system of rules that are to be followed when the bots are crashing. Postponements suck but make the most sense until bots are stable.

- Don’t make it a ingame on the day voting system when it comes time for decisions to be made. Have established systems in place in the event of different things happening. Make sure they are impartial and not biased by any: screaming, whining group of players.

- Recruit all round mutually respected, unbiased seasoned TWL ops to run the leagues (bringing in a player like Tiny creates controversy from day 1).

- Work hard on expanding the amount of squads involved in TWD. So that come TWL we can have more than 15 squads involved across 3 leagues – with many of them being only involved in one league.

- Give newbie squads, fly by night squads, in-between TWD squads a chance to compete for something. The only time I see player movement where different players play with each other is in-between TWL’s. Get more and more of that and new friendships, bonds are built and come TWL you won’t have the same 2 or 3 TWL squads consisting of the same players having a chance to win every year .

- Work hard in getting vets involved with the game back again. They make up the core of active players – and are likely the best chance of keeping the leagues going. I think retaining and growing European population is really important as well as it has severely died out a lot in recent years.

- Work hard on killing the trolling and trash talking vibe that now defines trench to its very core. Put a muzzle the worst offenders – staff needs to lay down the law sometimes place bans ETC for the good of the zone. Trash talking, trolling etc will always be their but reduce it and you have a chance of retaining more new players and getting new players involved in leagues. This should be applied to leagues, pub, hosted events etc.

- Lots of trench wars players have never played leagues seriously. Some of them would if they could get over the steep learning curve and the fact that they don’t have any opportunity to play on a competitive squad and instead end up playing alongside a bunch of newbies against a stacked vet squad. We need a better training ground for newbies to develop into league players.

- Every TWL squad should have 5 rookies minimum to be mentored. Make it a requirement. I would also strongly consider making it a requirement for TWD.

- Set up TWL rules for the small percentage of highly consistent laggers. If a player lags out huge amount of times consistently throughout the season – he should lose the opportunity to be a TWL starter. Give other players who have solid connects (majority of zone) a chance to start on their behalf. No consistent lag no controversial decisions. Sorry laggers you may end up having to watch teammates play on your behalf. Don’t favour any one squad, or use double standards in the decision making. Lay it out before TWL starts so everyone knows the game plan.

- I don’t think people will agree with me. But the way I see it is aliasing, double squadding etc has more of a negative impact than a positive impact in game. It removes responsibility and creates anonymity for negative people to consistently troll and trashtalk. This does nothing for the game and as long as its allowed its a detriment to the future of the zone and the leagues.

- Update the trench war’s website to make it current and more user friendly. Advertise the games league sites in game more often and clearly so new players can learn about the leagues.

- Consider not hosting all 3 TWL finals on the same day. That way no league takes precedent over the others, and each league final can get the respect it deserves. Spread it over 2 or 3 weekends. Create a fair system pre TWL which will define what squad/league is played in Week 1, Week 2 etc so that everyone knows from Day 1 how things are going to be.

- Restore confidence in the league, and make TWL fun regardless on whether you have a title shot or not. Teach players that theirs more to the game then "titles" and "trolling".

- And if the above is too much to do based on the limited resources and time of staff, instead work on a few key points and go from there. It’s unrealistic for anyone to expect flawless (or even close to flawless) leagues but a lot of improvement can be done.

[Vatican Assassin]

This may not work, but what if I were on 3 squads, one a BD/LB squad, one a JD/LJ squad, and one a DD/LD.

Let it sink in.

So each squad has a max of 15 players. Each squad is strictly a one league squad. You may be on 3 squads with the same people, or different people. You may only base and only be on a basing squad. Essentially, this would enable more squads to exist and higher ability for players to specialize in what they play. No more primarily dd squads with several basers who never get to base. Am I smoking crack or could this work?

edit: this idea seems crazier every time I read it making me like it more

edit2: read it couple more times, starting to seem like maybe a bad idea

edit3: smoked more crack, idea is sound, implement

[maketso]

TWL needs to get same stats page after games as TWD. I dont understand why is it not there already.
(The one showing who you've killed and how much you've bulleted when you died out etc.)

[Tiny]

I have already compiled a conglomerate group of players who are working on changes to TWL which includes captains/veteran players/staff/past league ops and current ones. This process of updating and changing has already started. If you would like to participate, please contact me in game. We welcome the input. As far as the stats, the changes are already under way. We have already updated the twl bots to pull in the stats much like the twd page, but the web page has not been updated to display them.

[Shaddowknight]

We actually discussed a few of those things this weekend at an upperstaff meeting. Agree with most of the other points also.

[Reckful]

Thread cleaned. It was made to be constructive try to stay on topic with good ideas for TWLs future or gtfo.

[Rise Against]

Cleaned up? Now we're being censored? Wow the way Trench Wars has become disappoints me..

[Crescent Seal]

why was my post deleted? i have legit input on twl changes.

- get rid of incompetent idiots like tiny from twl staff

[Rasaq]

Make rounds every 2 weeks and allow squads to play 3 rounds. We play all season best of 3 rounds just to play 1 round in twl. Really makes twl season insignificant. Eithermake twd 1 rnd or twl 3 then 5 in playoffs. Letting a roundof games go for 2 weeks will allow teams to.freely.set games up when they want.whether.during the week or weekend . If both teams figure they have the line on then gather a twlop and get the game.hosted. fuck typing on mobile.

[Mythril]

TWL's formula needs to be revamped completely in my opinion. It's no coincidence that this game's activity drops the most during the regular season. TWD having any relevancy or meaning has always been an illusion, but TWL just makes it even more obvious. I think the biggest problem is the lack of actual meaningful gameplay. As a one league TWLD player, you're playing 1 TWL game a week that lasts 10 minutes or 40 minutes a month. I think one League of Legends game offers more gameplay than subspace in one game. If you're on a good squad and you view the weaker squads as pointless and a waste of time, it's even worse. You're lucky to get 10 minutes of worthy gameplay a month.

I think the success of 3v3 has opened up new options for the zone to make TWL more active and interesting:

- Have squads play 2 games a week per league

- During the weekdays it may be more difficult to field 5v5 or 8v8 for basing, so allow 3v3 and 6v6 during the week with options to !addplayer.

- Allow squads to schedule any day during the week at any time for their weekday game or allow scheduling at a whim and have plenty of hosts available to host spontaneous TWL games when both squads have enough players and agree to play.

- Keep the weekend games 5v5 and 8v8 but make it more common to have Saturday games and allow people to schedule anytime from 1-7PM. Half the fun of TWL is watching games and everything being hosted in a 3 hour window takes that away, especially on a 3 league squad. I missed pretty much every game this season except for the ones my squad played.

Keep the regular season the same length as it usually is. This promotes competition and activity since something of importance will almost always be going on everyday and it will give people a reason to log in to watch or play a TWL game instead of just pointless TWD matches during the week. Squads also get to play each other twice so they'll be able to avenge their losses or sweep squads 2-0. Playing one round all regular season doesn't really mean much or show who the better squad is.

This shouldn't be too difficult to do. It's basically a normal TWL but forces your squad to have a meaningful TWD match every week.

[Turban]

first and foremost we need to completely rewrite the rules to cover everything with clear wording and detailed instructions of what will happen/what should be done if a rule is broken or something else unexpected happens. current rules are filled with either loopholes, lacking in "what if something happens" scenarios and some are absolutely absurd to even have on the list. rules should be absolute, they have to be followed. if a staffer wants to help out with TWL they absolutely have to know the rules say and also follow the rules. no biased, solo decision making. this is our first priority to have a successful season; someone is already working on this if i've been correctly informed.

our current playoff format in TWL is a downright joke, almost completely making the regular season pointless if most squads only need one or two wins out of 7 to make it to the quarter-finals. playoffs should be more exclusive, featuring the very best squads, else it cheapens the feel of the playoffs and simply prolongs the already long season. while it's probably a fun experience for the "lesser squads" we probably shouldn't keep it the way it has been for the past couple of seasons; if we have eight teams in a league league only four should make it to the playoffs, not six.

during replay weekend we should focus on hosting fun TWL related events, such as All-Star or TWLDM in javelin and warbird. no distension, but i suppose classic events (such as capture) could be acceptable after the main events are done. if no events are planned and there's no need for a replay week. make sure to announce that TWL playoffs will start one week early in advance.

twld resolution limit should be kept at 1280x1024, however we could consider raising the limit in TWDD in all arenas but the main one (?go twdd) as more and more people seem to be using higher resolutions. agreed on that one.

twlb finals should not be a race to 20 minutes, best of three. that can take way too long and will exhaust the players, potentially pushing back the entire TWL schedule by over an hour.

we could have more games during the regular season either by having everyone play twice a week (playing every squad twice during the season) or with a best of three format during the regular season. TWL is fun to play, but the gaming experience is way too short.

we need also to scrap our TWL page and make a new one or merge it with TWD site. it's a lot of work, i know, but we can't be using the old site until the end of times. good thing that there are people working on this already. more statistics means more fun for a lot of people.

of course i would want to have changes in the staff structure as well (such as having having one person running one league, like one for basing, one for javelin and one for warbird. on top of that, we'd also have a main TWL head op) to make sure things would run smoother and be less of a burden for the people hosting the leagues.

those are what first come to mind when thinking about changes.

[Ephemeral]

I agree with Turb, the TWL rules are horrible. But any discussion about them will quickly degrade into a ‘bottom up’ discussion as people jump in and pick specific rules/details out for improvement. This would result in just another version of the awful existing rules and not fix the primary problem. The zone needs to take a strategic approach to improving the rules structure.

Strategically the primary problem with the rules is that the actual ‘law’ is merged together with the ‘penalties’ in same document. Additionally, there is not enough latitude in the ‘penalty’ sections to allow enough flexibility to handle all the various unique situations that seem to arise each season. The result is that the rules have become something that get ‘bent’ and/or ‘broken’ fairly often. This serves to undermine their effectiveness; they are not taken seriously and far too many decisions become subjected to frivolous appeals and extraneous drama.

I think one possible solution to reorganize and rewrite the rules into two distinct sections. The first section contains the rules; these are hard and fast, carved in stone, rarely get changed. Each rules simply calls out the ‘type’ of penalty for breaking it (for example, similar to a crime being considered as a ‘felony’). The penalty section defines the scope of possible punishments for each ‘type’ of penalty.

For example, let’s consider a simple existing rule.
1.04 - Deliberate attempts to disrupt game play may result in that player being silenced or kicked from the arena by the Referee or League Operators. Furthermore, that player will be reported to the League Operators who will take further action.

Right away we have an issue, the rule itself is soft and open for subjective debate. It states “Deliberate attempts to disrupt game play may result in that player being…” Some bonehead reads this and thinks, ‘well being an idiot may or it may not be acceptable, guess I'll test the limits’. The rule should be, “Deliberate attempts to disrupt game play are illegal and not allowed under any circumstances. This is a Class 2 (or whatever it ends up being called) offense.” There is no wriggle room in the rule now, it is simply illegal to do, period. No subjectivity needed by hosts or players to understand and apply the rule.

The penalty section would be the place where we have flexibility and allow some subjectivity. A ‘Class 2’ offense could have a range of possible remedies, from a slap on the wrist all the way to being banned from TW if desired (and appropriate). But it is only within the penalty decision process that flexibility is allowed, and only then within the defined parameters. Any appeals are limited to the scope of the penalty and not the rules themselves. This is analogous to a judge making a sentencing decision once a person has been found guilty. He has some latitude but must stay within the defined sentencing requirements.

Of course the “Class 1, Class 2, Class 3” (or whatever they are called) could be applicable to many different rules; we won’t need to make a unique ‘Class X’ penalty for every single rule. But we would have to make a delineation between player penalties and team/squad penalties.

This would provide a good foundation to build on. But to move forward with the way the rules are currently structured would be like putting lipstick on a pig.
eph

[Exalt]

all right guys. im not a twl op or anything but we as players should putin (see what i did there) ideas on ideas to improve for next season.
mine are:

-making sure hosts are properly trained (lag, manual hosting, etc.)
-eligiblity system is flawed. i say roster should be locked from saturday to sunday and be open the rest of the week. then a hard lock could take place somewhere in week 6 (assuming there are 8 teams) no other locks. (this is mainly for dev and it shouldn't be here, but is a simple bot command made by the twl op whether rosters are locked or not easily doable?)
-time slots. i'm euro, 4 pm est is too late for me. i have managed so far, but what about pushing it further? what about 8 pm est? most of the guys playing are in north america anyway
-a complete change to the rules? opinions?
-twld resolution. i say we should keep it at 1280x1024. a good compromise was given the other day to me by upster... by trying no limit out in the main twdd arena, while keeping a limit on the others. everyone good already knows to shift to a new arena, while new players can use their max reso pretty much everywhere they want/know about. collect data, see if there is a big demand for it. make a decision. (more for twd ops though)

pls post your opinions on what features should or should not be added, try to refrain from bashing or suggesting bot features in this thread, we could make one for the dev team too.

also, a big thanks to reckful and twl ops who made sure to spend their free time on this.
thank you, kindly, sincerely,
jones

1. Agreed

2. I say remove hardlock permanently. I can agree with softlock in most cases, if it makes sense, but hardlock does not make sense for this day and age.

3. I don't see why night games don't happen at this point anyways. What's the aversion to it? I never log into tw during the day. I always hated waking up on a SUNDAY early as fuck just to play a TWL game. TWL should switch to night games anyways. People play TW more during the night time anyways I think.

4. Depending on the rules, I agree. I think TWL needs a complete overall in a lot of ways, but I'm not so sure any TWL Op is either A) Capable and B) Willing to make any significant changes to the format/formula of TWL. I just think TWL needs something to spice it up. It's been the same thing for over a decade and it's stale and boring now. It only gets worse every year. It never gets better. Time for a change we can believe in, and not Barrack Obama.

5. I agree. Keep it at 1280x1024. While I can easily and always have been able to play on a higher res, I honestly don't believe this game was MEANT for much higher resolutions than 1280x1024 or around there. This game was made in like 1996 on CRT monitors. They didn't go above 1280x1024. Too high of a res ruins the gameplay not only for the player on that res, but for everyone else that is NOT on that much higher res. Nobody should have significant advantages/disadvantages in this game simply based on how expensive your monitor is, because this game's point is that everything is fair and equal despite how fast/slow/whatever your computer is. All the people that complain about resolution caps are people with super high resolution monitors who basically want to have a legal "cheat" to somehow get better than they are at this game. It is no different than losers using CE or other cheats trying to cheat their way into not being newbie scrubs. How about you people just learn how to play the damn game instead of whining that your $1000 computer can't play on an insanely high resolution for a 20 fucking year old 2d game? What kind of fucking demand even is there for max resolution? How many people like TWD games in those no-res cap games? Very, very few do it, and honestly, everytime I've played against someone who uses some insanely high res, those players ALWAYS go negative. The game is actually harder to play on a really high resolution in my opinion. Even still though, someone will turn into Sika on their resolution that shows the entire map, and it will be completely unfair. I for one will never, ever support no-cap resolutions. This game was not made to be played like that, and anything that gives an edge to players with more money on a game that is 20 years old is ridiculous. If these people want to use their waste-of-money, overly-expensive monitors, go play fucking Call of Duty or something and shut the fuck up.

I have already compiled a conglomerate group of players who are working on changes to TWL which includes captains/veteran players/staff/past league ops and current ones. This process of updating and changing has already started. If you would like to participate, please contact me in game. We welcome the input. As far as the stats, the changes are already under way. We have already updated the twl bots to pull in the stats much like the twd page, but the web page has not been updated to display them.

Who are these "conglomerate group of players" you speak of? Transparency please. Your non-transparent pick of random people is not really something I like. I want to see exactly who these people are, an entire list of them, and then I want to see what the fuck you are assigning them to work on/fix/change/etc. I'm willing to bet that most of them have no fucking clue about what to do and either don't give a fuck, or have no idea how to fix TWL because they've never played TWL.