player input on twl changes

[Turban]

completely agreed, and i would like to add something that should be obvious for most of us.

once someone has finished a "rough sketch" of the new rules it should be released on the forums for all of us to review. remaking of the rules should by no means be a "one man job" - everyone can and should be involved in the latter days of the rewriting process. no one is perfect, there'll always be things that could be added and it would be our job to spot those possibly problematic scenarios that weren't covered in the original version. once we all agree that everything is in order, and all of us agree that we'll follow the rules we just remade, that's about when we can start planning a new TWL season. having clear rules is the most important part of TWL and the number one reason why there has been multiple questionable calls in the past seasons resulting in appeals. appeals will continue to happen, but they shouldn't appear because the rules didn't cover something completely. if we missed something noting prevents us from adding and improving the new rules, although it should be TWL ops voting / deciding whether or not the new rule will be added to the existing ones.

we need to clearly point out the penalties that happen if someone breaks a rule. no favoritism or the rules will lose their meaning. i'm not sure who's up for the task to start the rewriting process, but i'll gladly assist when it's almost completed if you need another pair of eyes.

[Exalt]

completely agreed, and i would like to add something that should be obvious for most of us.

once someone has finished a "rough sketch" of the new rules it should be released on the forums for all of us to review. remaking of the rules should by no means be a "one man job" - everyone can and should be involved in the latter days of the rewriting process. no one is perfect, there'll always be things that could be added and it would be our job to spot those possibly problematic scenarios that weren't covered in the original version. once we all agree that everything is in order, and all of us agree that we'll follow the rules we just remade, that's about when we can start planning a new TWL season. having clear rules is the most important part of TWL and the number one reason why there has been multiple questionable calls in the past seasons resulting in appeals. appeals will continue to happen, but they shouldn't appear because the rules didn't cover something completely. if we missed something noting prevents us from adding and improving the new rules, although it should be TWL ops voting / deciding whether or not the new rule will be added to the existing ones.

we need to clearly point out the penalties that happen if someone breaks a rule. no favoritism or the rules will lose their meaning. i'm not sure who's up for the task to start the rewriting process, but i'll gladly assist when it's almost completed if you need another pair of eyes.

I agree with this statement completely. The people that seem to care the most and are the most invested in TWL and changes to TWL are already on this forum talking about it. That being said, why is there a random, anonymous "conglomerate" of people making changes to TWL while the people that are most knowledgeable and who are the most invested in the future success of TWL NOT apart of this random, anonymous "conglomerate" in the first place?

This smells. Badly. Of fish. Dead fish. Stinky dead vagina fish.

[Ephemeral]

I cannot speak to whom else might have been asked but can confirm that I was asked to participate with improving the TWL rules after the end of the season.
eph

[Ricko]

I have a few proposals for next season's structure/format that I will put in to a forum thread early next week when I have time - they come from my own ideas and a couple from Mythril's post such as playing mid week games and I believe they can increase competitiveness and activity levels. They are purely structural for how TWL format should be and NOT about TWL rules themselves - that's a much longer and tougher job; but in short we do need to, IMO, remove soft/hardlock and have one set cut off date for TWL rosters around week 5 in to a season...you can jump around before then, but after that you're stuck on your squad and if you leave you cannot re-join another squad.

I discussed with Rough my TWL format idea and he seemed to really like it, now I just need to write it up for all to see....

[Turban]

TWL is supposed to be the pinnacle of competition in trench wars, a place where new players prove themselves to the veterans and make themselves known. unfortunately our current TWL season doesn't have that many games to be played meaning they have less chances to show that they are worthy of recognition. to tackle this problem we could add more games to be played during the regular season, as some people already mentioned, with one game during the weekened (SAT/SUN) and another one during the weekdays (MON-FRI or TUE-THUR) essentially doubling the amount of games you can play. we could even take it one step further and add a third game, but that's probably too wild of an idea to be implemented with the current state of the game. TWD is meant to be a place where you get ready for TWL, however we're too used to the best of three format in TWD which is doesn't even exist in the TWL regular season. it would be a quality change to make the regular season games, in javelin and warbird, a best of three series. basing should remain unchanged until semis/finals and even then it should be BO3 15 minutes; not 20 minutes like this season.

with a technically longer season (more games played) we also should have a more exclusive playoff format. teams have had plenty of time to prove themselves worthy of playoffs, in an eight team setup only four teams should make it to the end. there's no need to have a quarter-final with that few teams participating, it only diminishes the quality of the playoffs and lessens the meaning of a regular season.

soft lock and hard lock rules need to be rewritten, along with countless other things mentioned above. often times you see players start playing the game again during the regular season of TWL, however it's too late for them to join a squad to help and participate in the fun. i would push the hard lock all the way to last week while keeping soft lock at around week 2/3 to prevent too much squad hopping.

while i kind of like the idea of "mentoring" players, don't think we can support or enforce something like that with our current amount of players. however, if we had enough captains who cares about the growth of trench wars and want to help out, we could always have a "newbie TWL cup" ran during the season with each team having a training/farm squad participating - perhaps implemented within their TWD page (e.g. main roster and training roster). just an idea, though, and it's unlikely that we'll ever see something like this happening at least in the near future.

that's probably somewhat close to what ricko was about to propose, or maybe not -- haven't heard anything about his plans -- and a summary of what's been proposed thus far that i agree on. i could go on, but getting a bit lazy.

EDIT: forgot to mention that there's always a chance that games during MON-FRI may have no shows, thus we could also consider hosting once on saturday and once on sunday if we want to play more games. whoops.

[Exalt]

I have a few proposals for next season's structure/format that I will put in to a forum thread early next week when I have time - they come from my own ideas and a couple from Mythril's post such as playing mid week games and I believe they can increase competitiveness and activity levels. They are purely structural for how TWL format should be and NOT about TWL rules themselves - that's a much longer and tougher job; but in short we do need to, IMO, remove soft/hardlock and have one set cut off date for TWL rosters around week 5 in to a season...you can jump around before then, but after that you're stuck on your squad and if you leave you cannot re-join another squad.

I discussed with Rough my TWL format idea and he seemed to really like it, now I just need to write it up for all to see....

Ricko, I am interested in what your ideas are. I'll never forget when me and you proposed that AML (tw amateur league) thing years and years ago in like 2005 lol. Anyways, I am interested in what some of your ideas are if you care to share them publicly.

Also, I want to see this list of players that are added to the "conglomerate" due to transparency. I don't really care that I'm not on the list, but I think the list should be shown to people that it is going to affect. For instance, if the list turns out to be ALL basers, then obviously it isn't going to reflect all of the TWL players as a whole, only one division, and it could be biased. Due to TWL being such a VITAL cornerstone to Trenchwars as a whole, I believe transparency is completely warranted and probably for the best. TWL is too important to let someone screw it up.

we could always have a "newbie TWL cup" ran during the season

This has been proposed like every year since me and ricko made a big deal out of an AML league in like 2005. I doubt it will ever happen, and with so few TWD squads now, I don't even know if one can be supported. Then again, squads like Lightning Strike are the most active TWD squads out there, and they are generally one of the "newbie TWL cup" squads you'd be talking about.

[Turban]

we could always extend our current TWD system to allow a sub-roster, a mentoring system, for new players, and have those play in the cup for your squad for some experience. it doesn't have to be a separate TWD squad playing in the cup; perhaps allow one veteran player from the main roster (or two) to play in the games as well.

basically you would have your TWD roster with a limit of 30 (or 35) and a nearly limitless newbie roster. you don't have to participate in the cup, but if you want to help the zone then you could always recruit new players, train them and have them participate.

[Ephemeral]

Exalt,
Please send me some of the bud you are smoking. With all things that are currently going down, with all the issues that need to be addressed; how do you justify making a ‘transparency’ case out of someone soliciting some help in drafting up some possible changes in a league?

I don’t want to speak for others but I see no conspiracy or intentional exclusion of anyone here. It appeared to me that people were being proactive and trying to generate some help in a initial revisit of the TWL rules. I assume that since I have been vocal about changing that I was a logical choice to ask, but it was made clear to me that nothing would happen while the TWL season was underway.

I saw nothing that indicated that this was to be done in stealth mode or under the radar. My understanding was that the issue would be visited after the season was over and help was needed to put together a starting point. I fail to see how this could be considered a transparency issue. IMO it was people thinking ahead and getting their shit together.
eph

[Ricko]

Please stop suggesting your TWL ideas Turban/Exalt -you're stealing the thunder from what I want to propose soon

[Turban]

Please stop suggesting your TWL ideas Turban/Exalt -you're stealing the thunder from what I want to propose soon

haha, sorry about being a bit inconsiderate and forgetting about you for a moment. ideas are better when you work on them together, especially with a group of other people, so i'll likely add my thoughts later if i see anything that could be improved.

it better be good with all this hype you're trying to build.

[Ricko]

it's great in my mind. Oh no, of course I understand it's much better for it to be a team effort....I just think my ideas are fairly simple-ish and if people generally agree it's a good template, we could all add in and iron out the creases together, I was only joking as you and exalt are slightly touching on bits of my idea and when I bother to write it up it'll just look like I copied lol.

[Exalt]

Exalt,
Please send me some of the bud you are smoking. With all things that are currently going down, with all the issues that need to be addressed; how do you justify making a ‘transparency’ case out of someone soliciting some help in drafting up some possible changes in a league?

Quite easily. Tiny said he had a LIST of specific people that he was using to make changes to TWL with. A CONGLOMERATE of people in his list.

You make that list public. Simple, no? Please explain what bud you are smoking that makes such simple tasks so difficult?

Let us pretend there are 3 divisions in TWL. Let us pretend one division is for warbirds. Let us pretend we call that division say... TWLD.

Then let us pretend there was a javalin division! GASP!!!! Let us pretend we call that division TWLJ! OH WHAT CATCHY NAMES!!!

Now, let us pretend there is a 3rd division, and that division is called maybe.... TWLB? That stands for TEE DOUBLE YA EL BASE. OR TRENCH WARS LEAGUE BASE.

Now, let us pretend that all the people in this anonymous list that are supposedly going to drastically change TWL in the way they see fit all are people from one division for whatever reason. While this probably would not be the case, you can never underestimate someone's lack of common sense while being staff members in Trenchwars. Many have made the mistake of trusting someone having common sense, and many have suffered for it.

Now, would there possibly be problems if all those players were from one division? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe there are 10 players and 9 are from pub and 1 is a pure baser who benches on dice, aka he's never played a single game before. Would these players know anything about TWL to make it better? Possibly, but possibly not.

Either way, does it hurt anyone to give a list of everyone who contributes to remaking TWL into something better/worse/the same? I don't see how. The only way it could hurt those people is if TWL sucks even worse than it already is right now, because those players had bad judgement and had to take the blame for something they did... I swear... I know there is a word for that in the English language. What is that word? Responsibility? OHHHHH!! WOW!!! RESPONSIBILITY!!!

/sarcasm


Anyway, I just asked for the list to be made public. I don't see why that's such a bad thing or how it is so difficult, considering Tiny stated he had a list of names already. He also stated anyone that wanted in on the "conglomerate of names" could just ask him. Therefore, what's the big deal?


Oh, and... weren't the TWL Ops listed publicly who decided to create quite a few stupid rules in creating what TWL is at the moment, with 8 squads and 6 of them who made playoffs (for whatever reason)? Rules that made little to no sense whatsoever... etc etc? There's a reason TWL needs fixing. It wasn't broken years ago, but it did need some tweaking due to population. That being said, it needs more tweaking due to rules like softlock/hardlock being outdated based on a policy we had from 2004 when the population was actually high.

I just fail to see how this is difficult. You act like there are a billion things going on that need fixing. It really isn't difficult at all. Anyways, I'm waiting to see what Ricko has in mind. I actually have faith in him. I actually have faith in all the TWL Ops, but honestly, transparency is a good thing and practicing it, even if redundant, can only lead to making it a habit. I think you could do far worse than developing a habit of being transparent

[Ephemeral]

Exalt,
At least you seem to care about the zone but having good intentions doesn't make you good at understanding what is broken in the zone and how to prioritize it. I am not acting that there are 'billions of things broken'; there are major things broken and a billion good intentioned 'ideas' to fix them. And it IS really difficult, the cultural changes that are required have proven quite resistant (and always are). Thinking otherwise is foolish and makes me think that you do not have the correct leadership perspective.

But good news is that you have a chance to prove me wrong. Go forth and fight for this transparency; pour hours into rewriting the TWL rules with whomever you can find will help you. Time will be the judge and jury for your efforts. I truly hope you can succeed and don't waste the precious resources that remain in this zone. It probably cannot survive many more fuckups, hope you know what you are doing.
eph

[but...why...per...]

I would happily rewrite the TWL rules if needed. If I am asked to I would aim to have them ready by the middle of May (probably sooner) so that they can be reviewed and amended well ahead of the next TWL season.

Incidentally I will state that I am not really in favour of midweek matches, mainly because it offers little for those that do not participate in TWL (since nothing else runs) and in the 'very unlikely' event of an appeal it narrows the time frame for a rematch.

I am dubious about changing the TWL times on a Sunday, whilst I support that it may be good for 2 squads with a large American player base I would not want to see Euro players be neglected from playing/spectating. Essential I think a later time frame should only be allowed if BOTH squad captians agree to it otherwise the usual 2-5pm EST schedule would be adopted.

Exalt I think Euros' not wanting to play TWL at 1am on a 'work night' takes precedence over you not wanting to get out of bed mid-afternoon on a Sunday

TL;DR version:
1. I'm happy to do rules by mid May
2. I don't support midweek matches
3. I would rather TWL remain 2-5pm EST
4. Euros'> Exalt

[Rule]

I would happily rewrite the TWL rules if needed. If I am asked to I would aim to have them ready by the middle of May (probably sooner) so that they can be reviewed and amended well ahead of the next TWL season.

Incidentally I will state that I am not really in favour of midweek matches, mainly because it offers little for those that do not participate in TWL (since nothing else runs) and in the 'very unlikely' event of an appeal it narrows the time frame for a rematch.

I am dubious about changing the TWL times on a Sunday, whilst I support that it may be good for 2 squads with a large American player base I would not want to see Euro players be neglected from playing/spectating. Essential I think a later time frame should only be allowed if BOTH squad captians agree to it otherwise the usual 2-5pm EST schedule would be adopted.

Exalt I think Euros' not wanting to play TWL at 1am on a 'work night' takes precedence over you not wanting to get out of bed mid-afternoon on a Sunday

TL;DR version:
1. I'm happy to do rules by mid May
2. I don't support midweek matches
3. I would rather TWL remain 2-5pm EST
4. Euros'> Exalt

Rewriting some of the leagues rules/improving squad structure would be a start in right direction.