TWL PROPOSAL

[Shaddowknight]

Im in an angry mood today, sorry.

[Turban]

take those chill pills, sir.

i'll help out with the next TWL season if my real life situation allows it. not sure what my schedule is going to look like in 7 months and i'm not too fond of making promises that i can't keep with 100% certainity.

what ricko proposed is fairly simple to implement and if there's truly a lack of coders then nothing is preventing us from doing some of the work manually. most of us know that the code in tw-core is a complete mess because everyone has touched the code. that doesn't change the fact that something has to change, the current league structure is atrocious and clearly outdated. it really shouldn't be that hard to make some quality-of-life improvements to the current league structure. not like we're proposing to completely remake TWL, just simple tweaking to make it more legit. :b

i've helped hosting tournaments without the help of bots or the likes in other games, basically doing everything manually with the standings, scheduling and rules, and there has been no issues. surely players could forgive us for a small delay when giving out the points to squads. at the moment we just have a lack of competent hosts, that's the only thing that needs to be fixed.

limiting TWL to only 8 different squads would be a bad idea. some people refuse to squad with others and it would force captains to make the dreaded decision of "axe player X to recruit player Y" if they want to be competitive. it's a good thing to have some kind of "team diversity". i'd prefer to have 18 different teams playing in TWL rather than forcing them to participate in all 3 leagues and i'm sure most agree with me on this one.

[Ephemeral]

Qan was clear, he made a 30 second change but didn't have the time/resources to test and this ended up with a wrecked season. M_M called it his most embarrassing moment.

TW is made up of one giant 'open source' ball of code. The vast majority of it has problems. This is not to say that the people who wrote it were clueless. It has never really been tested. Most ideas were done without thinking through the exploits. It has now been 'added on to' and touched by many, many different people. No one has really 'owned' the code, it is not like TW is a company.

And the problems extend beyond the code. We also have all kinds of other issues like not being able to control the biller. And when we do get some interest in other features like Distension and hockey we hit a brick wall when we go to expand them.

If you cannot see the commonality of these issues (not having the resources to do things correctly) then we will never be on the same page. You are suggesting the same things that the zone has done in the previous 18 years, add/change more stuff with little or no regard (or even acknowledgment) of the actual cost of doing them. But don't let history be meaningful, just keep coming with more ideas and keep tweaking things like TWL. It just my opinion and I may be wrong but it seems to me that doing more of the same thing we have done for years isn't working.
eph

[Turban]

COULD MY BRAIN WORK PROPERLY ALREADY. writing feels so off, can't even think before typing. brb fixing again.

[Ricko]

Eph - the qan change 30 seconds before the match is still not relevant to this TWL proposal and in this proposal I clearly stated TWLB playoffs should be best of 3 to 15 minutes every round. By setting these rules early we won't end up with the same incidents such as the bot change last minute., plus 3 races to 20 minutes is way too long.

Yes TW has struggled due to continual 'suggestions' that just keep on adding to the side of other issues, but TWL is a wing of the game, not the game itself. Formatting how TWL is run to benefit the zone is different to continual changes to the lev or weasel.

With the TWL site being re-structured/changed at the moment it makes complete sense to sort out what the TWL structure will be next year and the coding needed to make it run smoothly.

[Crescent Seal]

A similar points table version is used in the sport of cricket. My only concern is that after going through all of that trouble to set it up would it make a difference? For example, in LD the top 4 squads had a pretty huge win:loss ratio when compared with the bottom 4. Wolf itself had a 2 game lead from the 5th squad. My point is that if the competition is this bad then what difference would a points system really make in the end? This may have worked when competition was well spread but I don't think it would make much of a difference currently.

Here are a few ideas I had (which I've probably said on here thousands of times by now):

1. Fix the TWL site to mirror the TWD stats. Players get more into the spirit of TWL if they can keep up with the statistics.
2. TWD is our bread and butter. Create a way to increase activity in TWD and TWL will follow naturally. Give recognition to the most active TWD player, squad, highest kills, most wins, etc.
3. Since pubbux will never go away, why not let people bet on TWD games? Im sure this may lead to pubbers entering TWD arenas.
4. Make elim, wbduel, and javduel worth playing. Reset the stats every 6 months and give recognition to the best players of these formats too with medals of their own (make them less "glorified" than the TWL ones of course).
5. Stop hiring any willing random faggot to positions of staff that involve TWD or TWL. Competence is key.

[but...why...per...]

I'm not so sure that would work Shadow, you would end up with wb squads qualifying for twlj and twlb, maybe without any javvers or basers, it wouldn't really offer much by way of competition for those leagues. Also, how would you decide which 8 squads make it? What if several squads are only 1 leaguers?

I'm just trying to think from a pragmatic view point, whilst vetting systems can be put in place, how could you ensure that it offers the competition you were looking for? It seems to offer up more problems rather than solutions at the moment.

We need to start listing ideas with pros/cons and feasibility/impact (How easy is it to do? Who/what will it affect, do the pros outweigh the cons?)

[Ephemeral]

Ricko,
I don’t know how to make it more clear; the entire zone suffers from operating in the ‘just git er done’ mode instead of ‘doing it right’ mode. You started with the right approach by posting your idea here so that others can vet the proposal but you are missing the boat by dismissing getting a true SOW from those who would actually be doing the work. (Like BWP is suggesting.)

TW culture HAS to break out of this ‘git er done’ mode if it wants to continue to survive. Why? Because with low population the zone can’t handle mistakes like the most recent TWL season. Call it non-mainstream if you want but go review the 200 post thread to see what many player felt about its impact to TW.

When a culture deteriorates to a ‘just git er done’ mode it permeates to every aspect. Why do so many players have a disregard for staff? Why do so many players simply not give a shit? Why do so many good people contribute but then leave? IMO this all is the same problem; a badly dysfunctional culture.

I am not pissing on your idea, for all I know it may indeed be a worthwhile improvement. But what I do know is that the zone doesn’t need is another cluster fuck like this past TWL season. So the only part I am pissing in is your dismissal of approaching this change like every other change the zone has made in the last 15 years; half-assed and without even acknowledging the potential risks and costs or the development.
eph

[M_M God]

We obviously CAN'T have another TWL season like last, there WILL be changes, as to the how and what, that is depending on input from all TWL players, captains, experienced TWL staffers (yes we still have those) and DEV. Also, there hasn't been a true lack of hosts last season. Was more a case of people not knowing what the proper procedures were in terms of hosting, lag cases, appeals and bots dying etc. We still have enough time, let's use it wisely. Obviously a lot of upperstaff is currently tied up with the SSCU being down all together, development of the ASSS zone and ensuring the return of TW.

[zidane]

I like the idea of playing each squad 2 times, i think weekday games would be a mistake as there would be a lot of no shows which would probably jeopardize the quality of the games severely. I also believe that TWLD/TWLJ games should be a best of 3 rounds like it is in TWD, no reason to make it 10 minutes of gameplay. I'm sure someone has already suggested these 2 ideas, I'm just agreeing that i think it's good

[Ephemeral]

We obviously CAN'T have another TWL season like last, there WILL be changes, as to the how and what, that is depending on input from all TWL players, captains, experienced TWL staffers (yes we still have those) and DEV. Also, there hasn't been a true lack of hosts last season. Was more a case of people not knowing what the proper procedures were in terms of hosting, lag cases, appeals and bots dying etc. We still have enough time, let's use it wisely. Obviously a lot of upperstaff is currently tied up with the SSCU being down all together, development of the ASSS zone and ensuring the return of TW.

Which is another way of saying, we need to prioritize all changes. This is another reason why the full disclosure of the SOW of doing things correctly is important. Far too many times people have come up with ideas and get them placed high on the 'git er done' list when more important things aren't addressed. IMO the highest priority is to fix the culture.
eph

[Rule]

Lots of good ideas and brainstorming going on in this thread. As usual everyone has an opinion about what could benefit leagues whether its drastic or small.

I think with ideas their is what we would like to see happen and the ideal, and what actually works for the zone.

For example some players are always going to want to play with the same group of friends who share the same chats, interests etc for years.

I think whats happened with trench is we have a declining player base, combined with the fact that certain squads are stacked.

This makes for a boring TWD system. For one thing their is nothing to compete for at the moment in TWD. And the other is a lot of the newbie squads we used to see back in the day have disappeared. Take trench's natural decline in player base + the fact that a lot of players are tired of playing on average/weak squads that get slaughtered by the handful of talented squads in zone. Of course their is always the small percentage of medium-good squads that play, but just don't have that extra edge of depth to talent to go all the way when it comes to TWL playoffs.

These are some ideas that come to mind for me, some may just see them as unrealistic or too ideal but ill share them. And to the haters drinking that haterade who want to troll and flame this thread, eat shit =)

Option 1.

Run a small league. 8 squads etc like we are seeing. Extend TWL season by having each squad face each other 2 times. That way the season will be longer and maybe more exciting. Make sure that all caps are stable types who will run squads from beginning to end of season.

Option 2

Run a slightly larger league like 12 squads per league. Create a roster lock of 20 players per squad - For every squad. Regardless of whether the squad plays 1 league or 3 leagues. This may result in a TWL season where the talent is spread out more, and players have to multi-iship I see threads now where caps of top tier squads are asking that only TWL finals players get medals etc. When I see that it just confirms what we already have here. We don't need squads that stack so hard and are so deep that their benchers are better players then other teams starters. Reduce the size of TWL rosters, and you make captains have to choose their lineups, make sure their players are active. In season 5 for example when Epi and were capping Elusive we had 20 players, 15 who were active. We were able to play 3 leagues, and it was a blast. Playing with small group of players just made everyone more dedicated, and it was a lot of fun. If this system of small active squads can work, and is enforced apply it to TWD. Except make an exception so that each twl/twd squad can have a minimum of 3 players (maximum 5) who qualify as either: Rookie, in training, etc. These have to be players who relatively new to leagues (no more then 2-3 previous twl seasons played), recruited from pub etc.

The other option is to allow these 3-5 players to come from anywhere, old vets etc They are part of the squad, and can play as much TWD as they want. If caps want these players to play in the top 20 for TWL, they have to move someone up into that 20 and move someone else in to the player group in training. Once third week of TWL is done player movement is locked. Squads are no larger then 25 tops. The TWD system is one where caps have to get approval from leagues to run a squad, not one where people can people start one every week and dissolve it two weeks later. I prefer that the 3-5 players (or more, possibly up to ten) come from a player base that is newer, that way old established squads would actually have to make an effort to help new players learn the ropes. Then you have a more competitive and exciting twd/twl system where squads are mixed with vets and newer players, and player's have to learn how to multiship better. If a system like this works and we are able to get more and more new players involved, expand the league further - IE 16 squads. I like the idea of expansion instead of downsizing as I think their are alot of TW players out there who even now after 18 seasons have never really been involved in TWD or TWL seriously. Never had the option to enjoy the leagues. I also think that anyone who attacks this and says "we simply don't have enough players, or how can squad run across 3 leagues with 20 players" is just making excuses. When player interest is up more and more people become involved.

I think we need to realize that if no mentoring, or recruitment of new players into existing squads is done, if players continue to cluster on the same squads year in year out, the leagues will be finished soon. This season most of the caps I talked to who ran top twl tier squads simply could not name more then 1 player on their squad who would fall into the bracket "new". Those who genuinely love league play, and only login for it need to give back more to the system they enjoy - make it more friendly and inclusive to the rest of the zone. Recruit newbs, get players from other zones that are dying (EG, Chaos etc) and keep trench wars league rolling.

We also need to make TWD events like TWD Cups for these squads to compete for during off season April-December. Maybe even make it something like Olympics would be: Where squads finished 1st, 2nd and 3rd and it gets posted on their TWD squad site as an accomplishment.

Like others I also think that aiming for TWL leagues on any day aside from Sunday, and possibly saturday won't work as most people can only dedicate specific times on the weekend to play TWL.

I also agree with some of Ephemeral points about how we only have so many ideas we can focus on, that staff can only do so much. Its time to pick and choose what those ideas are, and anyone who loves the league element of the game and thinks its central (outside of pubbing, and key zone events) needs to voice that and work toward creating a better league system. Then we need to work on creating a stronger league staff system so that come TWL playoffs we have legitimate (non controversial) results. While doing all this we can't forget to value and cherish other non league events that are a key part of what trench wars is.

[zidane]

As far as getting the leagues more competitive, I honestly feel like TWLJ/TWLB were competitive this season, there were multiple teams that could have won the league, i feel like TWDD/TWLD has been dying at a steady pace for the last few years (always only a real 2 man show in TWLD). As a captain of a 3 league squad, i really felt like maintaining only a 25 man roster for TWL was hard and I had to make some tough decisions. I honestly feel like lowering the amount would be next to impossible so I don't think this route should be taken. Maybe the fact that there were will be more gameplay if changes are made this will make players more interested in participating. Maybe staff should give players an incentive in starting up new teams to have the least amount of chances of stacking, you need the right players to do this though, if tons of people just start new squads the vast majority will fail miserably

[Ricko]

TWLB and TWLJ this season were far more healthy than TWLD, agreed. There isn't really a way to just motivate people to pick up wb though....if we can improve how TWL is structured and give people more incentive to be active in TWD then we might see more competition evolve out of this in wbs, but I believe with some of my proposals we would see a benefit across all 3 leagues (and all 3 leagues could do with more players and competition).

Cres - the points system is one little change to try to motivate people to try harder and be more competitive during matches to push for a huge score or to push for a comeback mid-match to atleast get the losing bonus. That and it's always possible it could throw in a few surprises for ladder positioning. I think in this case we can look at it as only fierce/pandora/value/wolf have been solid this season out of a possible 8, but if we push to get more people wanting to TWD and TWL and bringing more players in to TW then we will see more solid squads forming for TWL - is it guaranteed? no, but if we try to implement what could be a good addition to twl (the points system) it's high/decent reward vs low risk of it not being as effective an addition as originally hoped.

[Dethdefire]

TWLB and TWLJ this season were far more healthy than TWLD, agreed. There isn't really a way to just motivate people to pick up wb though....if we can improve how TWL is structured and give people more incentive to be active in TWD then we might see more competition evolve out of this in wbs, but I believe with some of my proposals we would see a benefit across all 3 leagues (and all 3 leagues could do with more players and competition).

Cres - the points system is one little change to try to motivate people to try harder and be more competitive during matches to push for a huge score or to push for a comeback mid-match to atleast get the losing bonus. That and it's always possible it could throw in a few surprises for ladder positioning. I think in this case we can look at it as only fierce/pandora/value/wolf have been solid this season out of a possible 8, but if we push to get more people wanting to TWD and TWL and bringing more players in to TW then we will see more solid squads forming for TWL - is it guaranteed? no, but if we try to implement what could be a good addition to twl (the points system) it's high/decent reward vs low risk of it not being as effective an addition as originally hoped.

Twd has always been built around twl, rightfully so. We had hundreds of players online at a time. Twl had a mass of compitition and it was increadibly exciting. The time of building twd around twl is long gone. Twl is no longer an inviting aspect of the zone for new players. With the state of our zone twd is our bread and butter. I feel that It is due time to start focusing on increasing squads that participate in twd. Twl needs to now be built around twd. Most of the vets do not want to change how twl currently is because it is what wehave been used to for so long. The fact is that twl is rapidly declining each year. The quality of compitition is down to a mere handfull of squads out of the dozen plus that compete. Twl in its current state is not a quality league nor will it continue to sustain itself in the future. I would much raher see twd become the main focus. Why not reset the ladder, encourage squads to compete not to qualify for twl but to place as high as possible on the twd ladder. Then we could have a shorter twl single eliminatiin season, each game best of three rounds, with a losers bracket for the squads that get eliminated. Allow every squad with the qualifying amount of games an opportunity to sign up and play by placing squads in the brackets based off their twd rating. You could limit the need for scheduling games by allowing squads to play their weekly game at any time both squads are available providing a twl bot and staff member is available, leaving the scheduled time in place in the event a game is not played prior. The semi-final and final games would be at a set time. I mean we are in an age when any twl game can be recorded and ran on twitchtv or several other sited for later viewing. Either way twl is at least hree times lonher than it should be given the zones current state.