Why 1 Round?

[TopGod]

Although this seems like a good idea, it wont work. Why? It wastes time and messes up stats completely. I present you with this example:

Rampage vs British Squad. Score was 50-24. Probably lasted 10 minutes. If the match was unlimited for 30 mins, the score would probably be atleast 150-75, but probably closer to 175-60 because of the "we're getting raped so lets stop trying" attitude. I'm being conservative here too. A more accurate prediction would be 200-50, since if you know you have unlimited lives, you can play MUCH more aggresively, which leads to the other team trying less and dying more because they give up easier and faster. So what does all this mean?

From the 10-death-per-person game, the ratio is roughly 2:1 and +-26.
If that same game is extrapolated to 30 minutes unlimited deaths, same ratio of 2:1 only with a +- of 75 (conservative).
My prediction, for a more or less realistic score after 30 minutes of unlimited deaths is somewhere around 3:1 with a +- of 115-ish.

Do you see how this messes up stats? It's really hard to have balanced stats when you do something like this. If you apply these unlimited-deaths rules, it's like playing home run derby with a time limit =P

-Top

[Epinephrine]

I've thought a lot about your idea before too Rand (me and FoN argued about it forever on the old CoT forums before last TWL started), the idea of having unlimited deaths for 30 minutes. Basically the conclusion I came to was the same as TopGod. I guess it won't hurt to try, perhaps someone can test it out someday with some real games (instead of mindless wbduel-type "I don't care how I do" games).

What I do know is that it would completely alter the game, and completely change the way everything works. Many people who are good now will be crappy under this system , and vice versa. There are people even on my own squad who I would say are amazing killers, but die out really easily. Those people under this crazy system would suddenly be the best players in the league. Meanwhile careful people who die very little but get few kills might not be so good anymore. This change of the skill order would really piss off a large amount of people and affect the way all squads recruit.

Teamwork would no longer rely on players which were stable, and teaming properly to get the guy with the most deaths out. It would rely on trying to spawn as much as possible so you can get a ton of kills. Such teamwork would basically pander to the lowest common denominator and IMO hurt a lot of the skill that comes with playing the leagues.

As well because of the possibility of super mega blowouts, a hiding crappy team could seriously affect the final standings (i.e. a team that say went 20-200 vs Shriek, and then hides all game to only go 10-50 vs. Melee). Because it is impossible to make rules to properly enforce things like that esp in dueling leagues this system would require a complete overhaul of the entire TWL seasonal system so that every team has to play every other team once. This means that either the season is 15 rounds (too long) or we kick 5-6 teams from all the subleagues making TWL less inclusive and ultimately less fun for many people.

While this is a fun idea, and everyone loves the idea of a killing race, it seriously detracts from what TWL is all about and I am strongly against this system ever being used in TWL without evidence that could convince me beyond a resonable doubt that the Randedl 30-min killfest system is superior.

-Epi

[Randedl]

Originally posted by Epinephrine
the Randedl 30-min killfest system
-Epi

the name is all the proof you need

i see where yer commin from, however, i think it should be kept in mind that the first stat in terms of ranking would still be a squads record vs other squads, the kills-deaths would only come into play as a tiebreaker.

and yeah, it would alter twl alot, i never said it was a better idea, but i think it is an idea.

i probably mentioned this somewhere above, but i don't wanna go check. . .

twl will prolly have a bit of a delay between this season and the next. i definately lack the intiative to do anything, but maybe an invitational tournament with this style might be fun.

either take the 8 teams that make the playoffs in each twl, or set up a bwc style thing or some other random idea. but tw will lack some of the intensity and competition that it has while twl is going on after this season ends, and before the next starts.

just my opinion

[Escalate]

why is everyone ignoring the easy solution....

we would like the matches to last longer than 10 minutes, but dont have enough time for 3 rounds...make it 15 deaths and youre out. this preserves the exact same style of play and league setup, and does not change twl in any way except making it so that you dont wait and practice all week for an 8 minute quickie. 10 is afterall an arbitrary number, there is nothing magical about it. the number of deaths that results in average game times of about 25 minutes is what should be chosen imo...10 is definitely too low.

-ad

[Sirius]

but probably closer to 175-60 because of the "we're getting raped so lets stop trying" attitude. I'm being conservative here too. A more accurate prediction would be 200-50, since if you know you have unlimited lives, you can play MUCH more aggresively, which leads to the other team trying less and dying more because they give up easier and faster. So what does all this mean?

What it means is that those teams that do not have the players with the tolerance and determination to stay focused for 30 minutes will falter. Again, that tolerance is another asset which is incorporated into the competence of a player. If one team has a bunch of players that throw in the towel after 15-20 minutes just because they are getting owned or got bored, then they need some better players.

The whole concept of this unlimited 30 death play idea is to incorporate even more aspects of a player and squad into the game. Tolerance..ability to stay alive more and at the same time kill more...all that would go into play. Yeah some squads may start going on a mindless kill fest, but they will have horrible death ratios which would compensate for that. Besides, certain penalties could be incorporated for certain amounts/levels of poor ratios obtained. These would encourage players to put more value on the ratio than they already should.

All in all, I don't believe that aspect will hinder the game from making accurate measurements of a squad's competence.

Those people under this crazy system would suddenly be the best players in the league.

Not quite, considering if you put in penalties accounted for deaths, which negate the kill amounts in some form.

Meanwhile careful people who die very little but get few kills might not be so good anymore.

The opposite could be done concerning putting value on 60-7 over 150-128.

This change of the skill order would really piss off a large amount of people and affect the way all squads recruit.

It simply makes room for a much less confined game, with a lot more possibilities and room for strategy growth.

It would rely on trying to spawn as much as possible so you can get a ton of kills.

When you set yourself up to spawn people, you take the risk of getting spawned instead. Ultimately, the negating death factor would come into play and balance out your extra spawning kills with the fact that you died more due to being spawned in the process as well.

From the sounds of it, you aren't taking into consideration the fact that just because you have unlimited deaths, doesn't mean your deaths won't count against you or the squad's final score, since the game should still be based on the ratio. All you did was make it sound like this would become a deranged kill fest where nobody cares about the deaths.

And yes, some incompetent squads would view it that way, but the good ones will focus on keeping a strong kill/death ratio regardless of the amount of time the game lasts. Therefore, your argument that the game loses strategy is void due to lack of logical reasoning behind it (Being your reasoning had the concept of deaths or their negative impact on teams exempt.)

It's not just a mindless killing race if deaths retain impact. The fact that you DO have unlimited deaths will only serve as a positive aspect to lure incompetent squads/players into thinking of the match as a mindless kill race, while the competent squads will still hold to keeping their ratios, which will ultimately be the primary factor that counts.

There's your evidence, enjoy.

[Epinephrine]

Originally posted by Sirius
[i]
There's your evidence, enjoy.

That's not evidence, that's opinion. Show me some games run like that and have some stats, and so on.

-Epi

[Randedl]

Originally posted by Escalate
why is everyone ignoring the easy solution....

we would like the matches to last longer than 10 minutes, but dont have enough time for 3 rounds...make it 15 deaths and youre out. this preserves the exact same style of play and league setup, and does not change twl in any way except making it so that you dont wait and practice all week for an 8 minute quickie. 10 is afterall an arbitrary number, there is nothing magical about it. the number of deaths that results in average game times of about 25 minutes is what should be chosen imo...10 is definitely too low.

-ad

if that is how your squad is playing, you won't get very far. this game is as much about patience as it is about being able to aim.

with any squad in twl, you will play better if you are patient, that's what i believe, and that's what i encourage in my squad.

[Escalate]

cmon rand, dont be condescending. my point is simply that wb to 10 does not last anywhere close to 30 minutes 95% of the time, and in effort to increase the length of the games (which obviously many people believe are too short) adding a few deaths is the easiest way. not to be sensitive, but saying that my squad wont get very far with my current attitude and giving me tips on twld strategy is somewhat insulting. you take a post where im speaking in general about the shortness of twld games and from this somehow infer that i need help with my twld style. but all that aside, obviously every good ld squad is patient, and the games still dont last close to 30, which just further supports my point that even with the non-agressive style that is prevalent in ld right now 10 is not enough.

-ad

[Sirius]

That's not evidence, that's opinion. Show me some games run like that and have some stats, and so on.

K hold up lemme use my mod powers to set some of em' up.

[Fruitang]

Originally posted by Randedl
might also be cool, with the 30 minute thing, to have unlimited subs. ie, a line change system. squads submit their roster of present players at the time the game starts, and anybody submitted can be subbed in (late players can't play).

I was gonna argue against the 30 minute idea thing because for me it's just too long flying around shooting warbirds or javelins. But a line change system would make it more interesting, more people would have an opportunity to play and could possibly add more of a strategic emphasis to it.

[Epinephrine]

What if a team can only play 4 one game? The vicitories will be even more lopsided than they are already. Before you say "but that's why teams have to try harder so that competition is better", even if you have a league of just 8 teams you will probably get squads that for one reason or another cannot show 5 to a game (see how WR had to forfeit a jav game this past weekend and that squad is by all accounts very strong and large). The victories will be even more lopsided, and could seriously affect rankings in some way.

Also know how sometimes you get blowouts? Imagine blowouts so large you have people who never want to play again because it was so absolutely embarassing. You'll get situations where teams will lose 150-40.. why would they want to continue playing? The league would look like a joke

As with increasing to more than 10 kills to 15, I am also not convinced although that too can be tried. I think 10 is a good number if only because all of us have practiced forever playing for 10 and that's how games are structured. It sure would change things if you suddenly got 15 kills. Targetting would mean a lot less (as it's much harder to kill someone 15 times than 10 times). Yet 15 kills would not give you the full benefits that the Randedl killfest system would give (yah even though I don't like that system there are SOME benefits). I think if used it would be a comprimise and a weak one at that.

Again I say show some proof, get some mods to host some games like this maybe, and then if it's successful perhaps it's worth considering.

-Epi

[Randedl]

i really believe that a 15 kill system would just encourage more suiciding, i don't think it would extend a game all that long, sorry, but i don't.

also epi, if a team shows 4, or if they get blown out so bad they don't want to come back, they don't belong in the league to start with.

[Sirius]

You'll get situations where teams will lose 150-40.. why would they want to continue playing?

If they throw in the towel from some match they lost, then what are they doing in leagues? Leagues are for the strongheaded competitive squads, not some backwater squads in need of emotional counseling.

[Escalate]

Originally posted by Randedl
i really believe that a 15 kill system would just encourage more suiciding, i don't think it would extend a game all that long, sorry, but i don't.

this makes no sense at all. teams in a game will do exactly whatever needs to be done in order to give them the largest chance of winning. if a patient style yields the best results in a match to 10, the same exact style will yield the best results, and be used by all the good teams, in a match to 15. if you play basketball, and youre playing first to 30 wins....do you change the way you play if you make it 45 instead? of course not. the object is to score more points and keep your opponent from scoring and that does not change with a minor adjustment to the amount needed to win.

btw: sirius if you read this, im on vacation in seattle i forgot to tell you, dont schedule our game for saturday if you want me to be able to play in it. peace.

-ad

[Randedl]

so escalate, if we gave players 100 deaths each, they'd still play exactly the same as a game to 10? i don't think so buddy

watch a deathmatch to 15 compared to a deathamtch to 10, most people just don't have the focus to concentrate on a 10 kill game, you'll find less do the more you go up.

and no, i don't expect you to understand what i'm saying, but i believe it's true.