TWLB mapchange, why it is needed

[Windreaper]

Miau: Basically, yes. It could be curved upwards, too (like a giant V). The point would be to remove corners spiders can tack to.

BLeeN: Blah, I'm too lazy to read all the posts anyway :P

P.S. It's good to be back

[BLeeN]

I did read his posts either, but i did know he told us in the chat. Though he said we ignored him =P

[Miau]

I will talk from shark point of view now since that's the ship I have most experience with and it also has been hurt most in cram (besides jav).

In cram sharks have lost their ability to mine.. since mining even at lower can break the cram and mess up the timing of the sharks (but this is only my personal rant for ruining my fav ship :P)

I think the mapchange Wind talked is the best. Remove the tile spids lean on to. Since now the problem is that attacking shark is only a shield.. it cannot make the spids move one inch by reps, nor can it move enemy terr (leaning to the tile). Shark as a strategic ship is plain shield when cramming.. if you remove that one tile spids lean to (and maybe make entrance wider as mentioned) it gives attacking sharks chance to rep the defending spids away from position.

Result: spids need to be really skilled to hold their position and get back quickly.. if they are not...... we get more flagroomfights. Don't see anything bad in that. Perhaps this does favor the attacker, but I don't think base should be just about "who wins first flagroomfight and manages to hold cram".

Removing that tile and larger entrance would result more flagroomfights but isn't that where the really skilled players show what they can do as a team and individuals?

[zXer]

I'll be working on a map as soon as I get back from school.
From what Wind and Sufficient said.

[BLeeN]

All in all, at least Miau, Wind and me are bored sharks. We want more action, than just being a shield for the spider. =P

[CrvenBan]

Originally posted by BLeeN
All in all, at least Miau, Wind and me are bored sharks. We want more action, than just being a shield for the spider. =P

Why do you think I mine so much in ?go base

I got buncha ppl whining cuz of it...no names needed....

[Sufficient]

Originally posted by CrvenBan
Why do you think I mine so much in ?go base

I got buncha ppl whining cuz of it...no names needed....

Have fun TKing ... at least Spastics' sharks have the decency and consideration (for their teammates) to try something totaling different (playing w/o mines and using only reps) ... I personally know it takes *quite* a bit of determination to NOT mine ... you sorta hafta fight the urge ...

[Sufficient]

Originally posted by Miau
I will talk from shark point of view now since that's the ship I have most experience with and it also has been hurt most in cram (besides jav).

In cram sharks have lost their ability to mine.. since mining even at lower can break the cram and mess up the timing of the sharks (but this is only my personal rant for ruining my fav ship :P)

I think the mapchange Wind talked is the best. Remove the tile spids lean on to. Since now the problem is that attacking shark is only a shield.. it cannot make the spids move one inch by reps, nor can it move enemy terr (leaning to the tile). Shark as a strategic ship is plain shield when cramming.. if you remove that one tile spids lean to (and maybe make entrance wider as mentioned) it gives attacking sharks chance to rep the defending spids away from position.

Result: spids need to be really skilled to hold their position and get back quickly.. if they are not...... we get more flagroomfights. Don't see anything bad in that. Perhaps this does favor the attacker, but I don't think base should be just about "who wins first flagroomfight and manages to hold cram".

Removing that tile and larger entrance would result more flagroomfights but isn't that where the really skilled players show what they can do as a team and individuals?

Yes cram sharks have lost the ability to mine ... but attacking sharks still can use their bombs ...

It's quite frustrating when all you guys/girls find ways to eliminate the cram when you should find ways to open up the game (and in result lessen the effects of the cram). If lining was as strong as cramming I wonder what the heck you guys would do ... and yes ... a SUCCESSFUL LINE MEANS NO FR BATTLES! That means rather than trying to eliminate/downgrade the cram ... you should be "opening up the game" more ... thus adding a second entrance.

[Miau]

Originally posted by Sufficient
Have fun TKing ... at least Spastics' sharks have the decency and consideration (for their teammates) to try something totaling different (playing w/o mines and using only reps) ... I personally know it takes *quite* a bit of determination to NOT mine ... you sorta hafta fight the urge ...

My point excatly.. your sharks can't do anything else.. I don't think basing is working as it should if a team can learn ONE strategy wich they use EVERY time.. and still win (not that you wouldn't have played better than us. no one will take that win from you).

Map is not balanced when you can dominate by telling players "do this and only this". It takes away the creativity and, yes, teamwork also.. by teamwork I mean the instinct based know-how not the prac-and-repeat way of teamwork. Any team can prac how to cram properly but inside flagroom you cannot prac just one strategy since it depends on you're opponent also. Cram has the advantage that you KNOW what your opponent is able to do and therefore can prevent it.

I'm not looking for a way to prevent cramming but to balance it out with other strategies. So that you could cram if you really want but it's hard... just like you used to be able to line even if it's hard. Make another startegies even with cramming is all I want since this is simply a flaw in map

[BLeeN]

Sufficient, you forget the shark was more versitile in the old days. Which made the ship much more fun for us to play.
We don't want to stop the whole point of cramming, but we do want to see some new idea's now and then.
And saying that we aren't considerate for our teammates is just crap.

We watch everytime where our terr is, and help the terr when its needed.
We watch out where the enemy jav is.
We help the spiders, if they need it.
We delay the enemy ships, so the rest can position themselves better.
We die more, just to help the rest.
We almost never get thanked either.

Something more I missed?

[Sufficient]

Originally posted by BLeeN
Sufficient, you forget the shark was more versitile in the old days. Which made the ship much more fun for us to play.
And saying that we aren't considerate for our teammates is just crap.

We watch everytime where our terr is, and help the terr when its needed.
We watch out where the enemy jav is.
We help the spiders, if they need it.
We delay the enemy ships, so the rest can position themself better.
We die more, just to help the rest.
We almost never get thanked either.

Something more I missed?

I'm sry if I suggested that mining sharks are not considerate of their teammates ... that's not what I meant. However, you seems to not understand WHY cramming sharks don't mine ... it's for their teammates. You know one real important reason why crams play 5 spids ... it's bc spids don't TK ...

The main reason for changing settings/map/etc is the following ... tell me if I'm wrong ... *You don't think cramming is fair/balanced bc, successful cramming means almost no FR battles* ... fair enough.

Tell me now ... successful lining means no FR battles right? Isn't that the same as successful cramming? ... the results are *both* no FR battles.

[Sufficient]

Originally posted by Miau
My point excatly.. your sharks can't do anything else.. I don't think basing is working as it should if a team can learn ONE strategy wich they use EVERY time.. and still win (not that you wouldn't have played better than us. no one will take that win from you).

Map is not balanced when you can dominate by telling players "do this and only this". It takes away the creativity and, yes, teamwork also.. by teamwork I mean the instinct based know-how not the prac-and-repeat way of teamwork. Any team can prac how to cram properly but inside flagroom you cannot prac just one strategy since it depends on you're opponent also. Cram has the advantage that you KNOW what your opponent is able to do and therefore can prevent it.

I'm not looking for a way to prevent cramming but to balance it out with other strategies. So that you could cram if you really want but it's hard... just like you used to be able to line even if it's hard. Make another startegies even with cramming is all I want since this is simply a flaw in map

K ... then shouln't you be trying to strengthen the virtues of lining and other forms of strats *instead* of trying to *downgrade* the cram?

Will you tell WR that their lines are one strat? Will you tell them that they are not creative in their strat? I wouldn't.

[Miau]

You dont get it do you? Cram removes flagroom fights... only fr fight happen wich can barely be called fights..

And I understand WHY cramming sharks don't mine but you don't understand WHY sharks were given mines. Most shark skill doesnt lay in not-mining but in mining such a way that doesnt tk much but kills enemies.

I understand your will to defend crams position as the ultimate start since it's the only start you use. Diso has crammed, have used javs, 2 javs, 1wb and jav...with different results.. I want that versality back to the game. and yes, cramming needs to be downgradd in order to make that happen... possibly by small mapchanges.

[Sufficient]

Originally posted by Miau
You dont get it do you? Cram removes flagroom fights... only fr fight happen wich can barely be called fights..

And I understand WHY cramming sharks don't mine but you don't understand WHY sharks were given mines. Most shark skill doesnt lay in not-mining but in mining such a way that doesnt tk much but kills enemies.

I understand your will to defend crams position as the ultimate start since it's the only start you use. Diso has crammed, have used javs, 2 javs, 1wb and jav...with different results.. I want that versality back to the game. and yes, cramming needs to be downgradd in order to make that happen... possibly by small mapchanges.

Actually ... if you have been keeping up with the threads here you would have known that I beleive something *does* need to be changed to "open up the base more" ... not eliminate/downgrade cram ... my position is to add 2 entrances in fr ... if you're going to argue w/me about this thread you'll prob have to read the other threads. I proposed a second fr entrance on top and fully enclosed FR ... my stance also is to bring back pub weasel and *try* not to make any setting changes other than the map.

And plz comment on my post on lines .. I'd be interested in hearing your opinion.

[CrvenBan]

Originally posted by Sufficient
The main reason for changing settings/map/etc is the following ... tell me if I'm wrong ... *You don't think cramming is fair/balanced bc, successful cramming means almost no FR battles* ... fair enough.

How about this:

The main reason for changing settings/map/etc is the following ... tell me if I'm wrong ... *You don't think cramming is fair/balanced bc, successful laggy cramming means almost no chance to break it with current map design*

Notice that I am still talking about lagging ppl that cram, where their lag gives unfair advantage in ability to stay alive longer functioning with, like Miau stated, aprox 5 reps. And that's without greening a single rep.