TWLB mapchange, why it is needed

[Sufficient]

Originally posted by CrvenBan
How about this:

The main reason for changing settings/map/etc is the following ... tell me if I'm wrong ... *You don't think cramming is fair/balanced bc, successful laggy cramming means almost no chance to break it with current map design*

Notice that I am still talking about lagging ppl that cram, where their lag gives unfair advantage in ability to stay alive longer functioning with, like Miau stated, aprox 5 reps. And that's without greening a single rep.

So you don't agree with PJ or other ppl that the so-called "laggy cram" can be broken? Tell me what you think of successful lining then?

And do you think that 2 entrances should be used? ... so far (I believe) you have stated your opinion about entrances or other setting changes ... again ... to me you are not helping your own cause.

My belief in the 2 entrances idea is that it'll spread out the game more and allow for more FR battles ... you can still line and cram ... however, the flexibility of moving btwm 2 entrances simply makes it easier to get into FR **WITHOUT** downgrading any specific strategy.

Also do you have any opinions on what I said about successful lining?

[Sufficient]

Originally posted by Sufficient
Will you tell WR that their lines are one strat? Will you tell them that they are not creative in their strat? I wouldn't.

Plz answer that question Miau.

[Miau]

2 entrances could be good but I'm still playing with the idea of smaller mapchanges that would even things out..

No.. wr is creative.. balancing out spids and changing javshots etc but that doesn't apply to cram... in cram there are no changes during game.. i dont' understand what is you're question about?

Edit: Cram is lacking the movement.. it's just plain sitting at a corner wich makes you unreppable by attacking sharks. I want cramming to involve more steering.. like you couldn't just lean on the tile and sit but actually steer to stay in position (=movement)

Edit no2. 2 Entrances would be nice but I don't really see that happening? I'm in for smaller changes since those are the most likely to actually happen

[Sufficient]

Originally posted by Miau
2 entrances could be good but I'm still playing with the idea of smaller mapchanges that would even things out..

Your suggestions specifically targets the cram with no intention of a compromise. 2 entrances is a non-specific change that treats cram, lining, and all other FR entrance strats the same.

[Sufficient]

Originally posted by Miau
2 entrances could be good but I'm still playing with the idea of smaller mapchanges that would even things out..

No.. wr is creative.. balancing out spids and changing javshots etc but that doesn't apply to cram... in cram there are no changes during game.. i dont' understand what is you're question about?

We've played AE in jav cram in 3 TWL games ... the cram does have variations that have *not* been fully tried.

[Miau]

See my edits..

And why didn't you play jav in any of the matches that were really REALLY important and possible losses? Were the game tighter when using a jav?

Just pointing out that even you see the upper hand cram gives

[Sufficient]

Originally posted by Miau
2 entrances could be good but I'm still playing with the idea of smaller mapchanges that would even things out..

Edit: Cram is lacking the movement.. it's just plain sitting at a corner wich makes you unreppable by attacking sharks. I want cramming to involve more steering.. like you couldn't just lean on the tile and sit but actually steer to stay in position (=movement)

Edit no2. 2 Entrances would be nice but I don't really see that happening? I'm in for smaller changes since those are the most likely to actually happen

Sry for all the individual replys but it's easier to answer each post as they are posted.

You say you want movement ... but how do your small changes help that? 2 entrances give more flexibilty and movement ... your changes, to me, simply don't (sry if I sound harsh there). And I think 2 entrances is the main thing to aim for ... already zX tried coming up with something and others, I think, are trying out other maps/changes.

Miau: You have yet to answer my question: The main reason ppl want changes is bc successful (and in Crvn's book ... laggy) cramming means less FR battles. However, successful lining also means less FR battles ... does it not?

[Miau]

Yes we are trying out the mapchages as we speak.. I'm happy with 2 entrances if that works.. happy with anything that evens out. we shall see how it turns out. Just favorin small instead of big since TW community rarely goes throught big changes

Edit: Last post about the subject.. this needs testing and trying out more things

Edit 2. Successfull lining doesnt have the lag factor as great as crammin does (ask myth to explain if you want)

[ÆNIMA]

Sorry to try and slow things down, but instead of altering the map (the same map that every TWer uses, just different tilesets) let's try using all 8 ships first. I've got a wonderful post that sheds light on the possiblities of 2 of those ships. They'll add another variable, and be more interesting than a wider entrance...or a second entrance, in my opinion anyway.

[CrvenBan]

Originally posted by Sufficient
So you don't agree with PJ or other ppl that the so-called "laggy cram" can be broken? Tell me what you think of successful lining then?

And do you think that 2 entrances should be used? ... so far (I believe) you have stated your opinion about entrances or other setting changes ... again ... to me you are not helping your own cause.

Also do you have any opinions on what I said about successful lining?

Anything can be broken, even a laggy cram, the problem, like with our game, is that when you have two laggy sharks that can eat a lot of bullets it tends to take a whole while to break cram, to find an opening. And that gives opposing side bunch of points.

Succesfull lining requires all 8 ships/players to perform their best (unlike cram where you _only_ have to have functioning sharks). Spiders need to pay attention to amount of bullets used and who is entering, sharks to rep/mine/be shield, terr to drop ppl off, jav to time bombs. And with all that you still have ability to pretty easy port inside, or that your own jav takes out spiders, and most important of all, amount of bullets eaten by ship has bigger advantage on offence coming in than on defense.

I don't need to help my cause because I don't have one, but I do have common sense and ability to see that there is a flaw in the map allowing this advantage.

[Sufficient]

Originally posted by Miau
Yes we are trying out the mapchages as we speak.. I'm happy with 2 entrances if that works.. happy with anything that evens out. we shall see how it turns out. Just favorin small instead of big since TW community rarely goes throught big changes

Edit: Last post about the subject.. this needs testing and trying out more things

Edit 2. Successfull lining doesnt have the lag factor as great as crammin does (ask myth to explain if you want)

I definitely think that we can't have *huge* changes. I guess we'll see what the TW basing community thinks will work and I hope we can start testing and get this issue before next season.

As for edit 2, you didn't answer the question directly ... successful lining simply means less FR battles ... just like successful (and laggy) cramming. So my question to you now is ... if one strat becomes dominant (and cram really isn't that dominant ... look at the teams who lost using it including Spastic ... ) will you always react in the same way you did to cramming this season? Will you (and ppl in the basing community) always change things when it does not work out for your strategy? ... I thought basing was adapting to other ppl's strategy not just changing some settings to so called "even things out" ... Isn't basing all about finding a strat that works for your team and also reacting to strats of the opponent? Remember ... FR entrance is only one aspect of basing ...

[Miau]

Bah really didn't wanna reply... but you admit the cram is not balanced by figuring out changes yourself.. and we DID try cram and saw the power.. it's not like "this is our strategy we will use only one".. we did try different stuff but cram as it is now relys too much to lag (mainly cos the defending spids cannot be repped awa at all)

[CrvenBan]

I don't know why everyone is so hung up on fr battles: ANY team playing will want as LITTLE as possible battling in fr where they can win or lose depending on skill/luck/lag.
That's why every team moves to a choke-point (bottleneck in lower) to prevent other team of coming in, that's why you mine, and chase ppl in lower. However, piling 8 unreppable, laggy, ships in a tighets choke-point of them all, WILL create lag shields that give unfair advantage (where a good part of attacking spiders bullets is lost) and, god forbid, that there is a floater on defending team...

[Sufficient]

Originally posted by CrvenBan
Anything can be broken, even a laggy cram, the problem, like with our game, is that when you have two laggy sharks that can eat a lot of bullets it tends to take a whole while to break cram, to find an opening. And that gives opposing side bunch of points.

Succesfull lining requires all 8 ships/players to perform their best (unlike cram where you _only_ have to have functioning sharks). Spiders need to pay attention to amount of bullets used and who is entering, sharks to rep/mine/be shield, terr to drop ppl off, jav to time bombs. And with all that you still have ability to pretty easy port inside, or that your own jav takes out spiders, and most important of all, amount of bullets eaten by ship has bigger advantage on offence coming in than on defense.

I don't need to help my cause because I don't have one, but I do have common sense and ability to see that there is a flaw in the map allowing this advantage.

Lag cannot be avoided ... in cram, in line, and in any other FR strat. 2 entrances will hopefully lessen the effects of lag. I don't think Miau's suggested small changes will.

And if you think changes should be made then DO something about it ... (not saying that you will, but) just don't complain if things don't work out for you next season.

[Miau]

Lag is greater in cram since all the ships are packed so tight in one screen area.. 16 of em.. uses more banwindth than it should etcetc I dunno about that stuff.. ask myth or Priitk but that's how it goes