TWLB mapchange, why it is needed

[CrvenBan]

Originally posted by Sufficient
Crvn seems to want to eliminate the cram (tell me if I'm wrong).

For the last time: cram, go to roof, play lt for all I care, but don't give me this bullshit how cramming with 2 lagged up sharks is not "overpowered".
Why can't you understand that ? It is not the formation, but the possibility of making any strat, any bomb and half of bullets useless because of two ships that can stay alive longer (provided by flaw in the map too). And it has nothing to do with our final game, nor with some ppl trying to destroy cramming, it just has to do with a simple question of fairness, because right now, I could set up a Diso-cramming team that would virtually be unbreakable.


PS
Cramming squad is a squad that relies on cramming strat only.
Diso is a basing squad that has used the cramming strat, but not played it as only valid strat. See the difference ?

[Sufficient]

Originally posted by CrvenBan
For the last time: cram, go to roof, play lt for all I care, but don't give me this bullshit how cramming with 2 lagged up sharks is not "overpowered".
Why can't you understand that ? It is not the formation, but the possibility of making any strat, any bomb and half of bullets useless because of two ships that can stay alive longer (provided by flaw in the map too). And it has nothing to do with our final game, nor with some ppl trying to destroy cramming, it just has to do with a simple question of fairness, because right now, I could set up a Diso-cramming team that would virtually be unbreakable.

Many ppl think cram is breakable ...

Tell me what you would do if lines were overpowering? Would you tell ppl that lines are basically groups of ppl which creates lag and thus should be considered and unfair advantage? The fact is that w/strat that is dominant ... some ppl will have problems, including lines and anything else you come up with for defendin the FR entrance.

What's reply to my AML/IML/Pro comparison? You think they are lagcheating too by grouping up/teaming?

[BLeeN]

Originally posted by Sufficient
Many ppl think cram is breakable ...

Tell me what you would do if lines were overpowering?

Kinda useless to say, Sufficient. Since lining isn't overpowering, it's hard to think about it what you would do then =P

[Mantra-Slider]

today there were some very nice discussions about a map change and I think it wont last long until you all can try them out in tw

And suff, Its a fact that when all 16 players are so close in the map as they get in a cram it creates lag in the game no mather how laggy every individual player is.

[Sufficient]

Originally posted by BLeeN
Kinda useless to say, Sufficient. Since lining isn't overpowering, it's hard to think about it what you would do then =P

Then apply the same logic to cramming. Cramming teams have lost. Thus cramming isn't overpowering ....

Mantra: Tell me what you think of my comparison to AML/IML/Pro strats then?

[BLeeN]

No, I'm just implying that Crven and you should discuss this minor argument somewhere else and let us just stick to the point =P

And I could do a query of all the matches to check which squad played 5 spiders and won and squads who didnt and won.

I think 80% of this seasons games are won by the cramming squads.

[CrvenBan]

AML/Pro also play games involving 8 players on each side and tight space where they all gather ? Didn't think so...


And again: cram is breakable. Having two lagged up sharks (be it 300ms, be it kazaa, be it ploss, be it that they play from Rwanda) will make that entrance near impossible to breach on current map. Not to mention 8 laggy players. So, in light of that, ppl are coming up with ideas.

Line and cram DO NOT function in the same way and you can't compare it just like that. And even with perfect team line is so much easier breakable.

[Sufficient]

Originally posted by BLeeN
No, I'm just implying that Crven and you should discuss this minor argument somewhere else and let us just stick to the point =P

And I could do a query of all the matches to check which squad played 5 spiders and won and squads who didnt and won.

I think 80% of this seasons games are won by the cramming squads.

About the tension btwn Crvn and I ... agreed. I'll just end it with this ... 1) many squads are currently using cramming 2) some use cramming more than others 3) simply using cramming puts you under the same scrutiny as your arguments against "cramming teams" 4) Spastic does not intentionally cheat 5) if you think any team cheated then use ?cheater ... if you have a problem with a TWL game ... send an appeal 6) if you expect changes to happen for the better ... do something about it .... and that's it ... we're on neutral grounds in my books Crvn.

I won't reply to your post above unless you would like me to.

[bloodzombie]

DONT CHANGE THE MAP, CHANGE YOUR STRATEGY INSTEAD.

In the playoffs, Mambo's tight cram and fantastic sharking shut us down, but you don't hear me crying that we need to change the map so that they can't do that. We didn't play good enough, and that's all there is to it. So now we go back and figure out what we can do differently next time.

There are teams out there that are extremely effective at breaking a cram... If cramming really was unbreakable, then a change would have to be made, but just because something's difficult doesn't mean you should change the map. that's just stupid. Instead, put some time into watching some games, watch the point at which the crams break, and figure out why it happened, and how you can re-create it when you're trying to get in, and avoid it when you're trying to defend.

Just because basing evolves doesn't mean that the change is bad, you just have to evolve with it or be left behind, don't change the game.

[Miau]

I think many agree with me if I say that cramming as a style makes shark a ship it wasn't planned to be. Why are there walls in b-elim? so that javs can actually use the bounce etc. Cramming IS overpowered because it's too easy (players don't need to know all aspects of their ships) and it DOES create lag.

[Adman]

The shark is what you make it, if you can't cram (i know you can cuz i just watched you do it) you're a bad shark.

Repping 3 times and timing witht he other shark isn't very hard at all, and the sharks can still mine.

[SuperMet]

Originally posted by bloodzombie
DONT CHANGE THE MAP, CHANGE YOUR STRATEGY INSTEAD.

In the playoffs, Mambo's tight cram and fantastic sharking shut us down, but you don't hear me crying that we need to change the map so that they can't do that. We didn't play good enough, and that's all there is to it. So now we go back and figure out what we can do differently next time.

There are teams out there that are extremely effective at breaking a cram... If cramming really was unbreakable, then a change would have to be made, but just because something's difficult doesn't mean you should change the map. that's just stupid. Instead, put some time into watching some games, watch the point at which the crams break, and figure out why it happened, and how you can re-create it when you're trying to get in, and avoid it when you're trying to defend.

Just because basing evolves doesn't mean that the change is bad, you just have to evolve with it or be left behind, don't change the game.

Right on BZ, I agree totally with what you said. I think more practice and experimenting will show that there is a good strategy to take down the cram. It's just up to the squads and players to spend the time to devise it. This is the same thing with the line, why didn't anyone complain about the line when it worked so effectively in the previous seasons? The line can break, so can the cram. I think that many people are seeking a change in the map or settings, but the thing that they should change the most is their personal bias towards something. Keep an open mind, know that things change, and evolve with the new trend and style.

Don't hate the players. Don't hate the cram. Hate the game.

[ÆNIMA]

What BZ said.

Let's try utilizing the 8 ships first. If that doesn't work, squads should just develop their own strategy. Spastic's cram was broken in the Final game. And a jav did it.

[wadi]

Originally posted by ÆNIMA
What BZ said.

Let's try utilizing the 8 ships first. If that doesn't work, squads should just develop their own strategy. Spastic's cram was broken in the Final game. And a jav did it.

Okay, for the lasty\ goddamn time IT'S BEEN DONE AND IT SUCKS HARDCORE. No, seriously, sit down, shut up and listen, IT MUNCHES, it's some of the sloppiest, crappiest, low intensity basing I've ever seen. Just because you've never seen it used doesn't mean no one else has, and when 5-6 different peope tell you, "It's been done and it was horrible" maybe you should take note.

The problem right now is not that the cram is unbreakable, but that it does unbalance the game. In this case, the cram does nothing more than exacerbate a weakness in the current base map that takes full advantage of how the current entrance is set up, and whether you choose to believe it or not the lag that is produced when you stack that many ships in close proximity. On top of that, watching a cram, participating in a cram, and fighting against a cram are currently extremely boring, and you need to remember that the cram was created as a LOW SKILL DEFENSE, and plays as such. Is it extremely effective? Yes, but you can't tell me that a defense where your sharks don't mind, and your spiders don't move, and your terr just bounces back and forth bursting is a high skill endeavor. Right here, before next season we the basing community need to make a choice about what's fun about basing, and at exactly what point defenses are given too much of an advantage against an offensive team of equal skill. Right now, I'd say cram D _IS_ an unbalancing factor, if it is played in a highly conservative fashion, and moves the match away from the frenetic pace of fr battles. Don't destroy the cram as a strat, it's valid, but make a few changes to limit it's effectiveness just slightly and restore a little more balance to the O/D equation.

Today, a group of 4 basers began discussing possible changes to weaken the current defensive position, and the conversation quickly grew to encompass a large number of basers from many different squads. The results of that discussion should begin cropping up in base matches soon, and I urge everyone to try and give them the benefit of the doubt. The current map's been around for at least 4 previous twd/twl/twt seasons, and if for no other reason, consider change for the spirit of change itself. You think your squad's the best? Here, you've got 6 months and a new base map, figure out how to win every time.

to summarize:
goals:
-decrease the effectiveness of the cram, but not destroy it all together, as it unbalances the game, moving the area in which a team wins/loses out of the fr and into a tiny spot in the entrance.
-Increase the usefulness of the javelin, warbird, weasel, etc. (this one might be slow in progressing, and for now I'd worry more about the traditional basing ships, I.E. javelin and warbird)
-Change the current entrance design, if for no other reason than this one's been around too long. Been there done that, now let's get something new and fresh.

Things to try and NOT change:
-downgrading the effectiveness of the spider, better to bring other ships up than have to change the TWLB settings even further away from pub settings.
- the overall structure of the fr. Current FR battles are plenty fierce, and if possible try not to throw out the unbroken parts of the fr with those that need changing. Smaller changes over bigger changes if possible.
-The flavour of trenchwars basing. One Flag, One entrance, eight ships a side. You need more? Go to EG goddamnit.

[CrvenBan]

Fitting word: amen.