TWLB mapchange, why it is needed

[bloodzombie]

Originally posted by wadi
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-Increase the usefulness of the javelin, warbird, weasel, etc. (this one might be slow in progressing, and for now I'd worry more about the traditional basing ships, I.E. javelin and warbird)
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I disagree with a lot of what you said, but this part scares me the most. WBs and javs are perfect the way they are. Teams that don't have a really good wb or jav can do fine without them, but when someone's good at wb, the other team ALWAYS cries bs and says the bird has no place in basing. This is because it's extremely effective when used with great skill, but worthless when someone doesn't know how to use it, and that's perfect in my eyes.

Then on occasion you get a team with the balls to use 2 or 3 birds, and they can often pull it off, and it's a lot of fun (not as fun for the other team though) and this is why shipchanges should be allowed, so that if you get goofy and it doesn't work, you can change, or so that if you get goofy and it does work, the other team can adapt. I think this brings in a new aspect to the game, and sets up your captains like coaches on a football team.


As for the base change, the main reason that I oppose it is because many bases have been tried, but this one stays because it IS so balanced. I have huge doubts that any changes to the base are going to keep this balance.

[Sufficient]

Originally posted by wadi
Okay, for the lasty\ goddamn time IT'S BEEN DONE AND IT SUCKS HARDCORE. No, seriously, sit down, shut up and listen, IT MUNCHES, it's some of the sloppiest, crappiest, low intensity basing I've ever seen. Just because you've never seen it used doesn't mean no one else has, and when 5-6 different peope tell you, "It's been done and it was horrible" maybe you should take note.

You misinterpreted AE ... just like I did before ... what I think AE means is NOT have 1 of each ship ... but try to utilize other ships in general (including wb, jav, lanc, and lev) ... so don't get all angry bout it ... (ie. "sit down, shut up")

[spacedust]

I have to agree that having so many players in such a tight area does create lag back a few internet connections ago I could not go to places like #mythrandir and play base. The lag was too great for me to be able to stay in it would lag me out. (and this was pre-cram by more than a year or two) Having that many ships in that tight and area on a poor 56k and the computer I had then was using then was impossible. Private basing and leauge basing was not an option open to me.

I would like to see the differences in the lag factor now for cramming and and those fr battles. I have heard arguements that if the ships are closer together then the lag goes up it seemed to me back then that if there were 16 ships w/in a somewhat small area <fr> that everyone would appear to jump on my screen admitedly my connection was not great back then. Yet I was able to base in the public arenas and be involved in a 5 on 5 fr battle w/o lagging out or having the same jumpiness problem.

Thinking back this might also have been a reason why I tended towards the levi and LT back then if the # of ships on screen increases lag the best way to play and have fun on a poor connection is to get on an Lt and fly around the outsides of the base and have fun in one of the few ways that would not result in getting thrown to spec.

Once I got the better connection / computer I was better able to play the more basing aspect of the game. My time in Lt's however has greatly effected my style of play. In reading this post and thinking about what was said, I have to say that any new strategy will be analized to pieces and collect the love and hate of many people. I should think that classical music might be a good rl example. In it's time it was revolutionary. I think the fact that a new strategy has come about is a good thing.

In my time as the squadleader of LT I tried to ephasis development in all types of ships. There were many times that seeing or experimenting with jav and wb shots led to some nasty Lt shots such as the ones that provoked the blocks that were added to the left and right ear of the fr.

Inventive thinking is what makes the game interesting to me, I am in no way saying that lines cannot be inventive. As a matter of fact I agree that cramming as a spider can take less skill and can be boring at times. When I feel this way I tend to charge down or try bouncing around while cutting across the fr entrance.

Of all the ships you are least likely to see me in in pubs is the x 1st and spider 2nd or closely tied with the lanc. I personally like messing with the jav the ship I consider the most ill-used ship in the game. The pool like bouncing of bombs off objects and slower recharge rate and butt bullets requires effort and thought if you want to use it well. In current basing I view it as having the most possible benifit and one of the largest possible detraments to a team.

This is becasue it has a blast radi and can be fired much faster than a shark bomb and still has the added element of shrap. in addition of course the tk factor.

In some ways I was sad to see AE jav so little this season but, considering the flack that he got back then about his lag time I am also glad that that cannot really be used as a griping point against us.

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my 3 and 1/2 cents

Some of this talk has made me wonder if people feel more comfortable shooting left and right <lines> rather than up and down <cram>?

added word least spelling fix

[ÆNIMA]

A couple things thrown up in the air.


The cram unbalances the game because there's already an unbalance in the game. The lack of people who know how to use cloaker, lev, or lanc. That I believe is the first cause for this inbalance.


Another idea. To test a squad's true skill in each league, the best solution would be (and I think wadi hinted it, not sure) to change the map EVERY SEASON. You wouldn't get a machine squad like Diso once was, you'd get yourself a squad that could change to the necessaties that a new map creates.

That is real skill, being able to keep up with the modern changes.

Changing the map every season, I would not be against that.

[Sufficient]

Originally posted by ÆNIMA
A couple things thrown up in the air.


The cram unbalances the game because there's already an unbalance in the game. The lack of people who know how to use cloaker, lev, or lanc. That I believe is the first cause for this inbalance.


Another idea. To test a squad's true skill in each league, the best solution would be (and I think wadi hinted it, not sure) to change the map EVERY SEASON. You wouldn't get a machine squad like Diso once was, you'd get yourself a squad that could change to the necessaties that a new map creates.

That is real skill, being able to keep up with the modern changes.

Changing the map every season, I would not be against that.

And it really doesn;t even have to be every season ... changing it once every 2, 3 , or 4 seasons makes things interesting for vets and new basers.

[wadi]

BZ, I don't want to change the warbird, or the jav sttings, I want to change their usefulness in a basing context, by making a couple alterations to the current map. Right now, you play 2 warbirds 3 spiders against a 5 spider cram and you're sunk. It's a simple matter of concentrated firepower, and the team with 2 birds comes up short. Same with the 5 spid line up, teams with effective javs played 5 spid line up s _all_ season not because it was some sort of fad, but because it put more firepower into play and an extra body in the cram. I don't want to knock the spider out of it's place as the heart of a basing team, but right now there's very little incentive to go out and find those new strategies that it seems a lot of people want to see. Cramming is easy to learn, hard to break, and enfuriating to play against, and that's great! But it's so goddamn boring to play and watch, and aren't we here to see a test of skill from both teams, not just the ones on offense?

Sure other maps have cropped up in the past, but none before ?go base and the 60+ base matches a day we have now. Right now, in between seasons and before the TWD reset, is the perfect time to explore the possibility of changes to the map. Pop it in to ?go base, or ?go base2 and run it through its paces, see how it feel. I'm all for a little uncomfortability in favor of progress, and right now we need some.

The current basing style's too comfortable, it's time to mix things up and see if something better falls out.

[bloodzombie]

Originally posted by wadi
BZ, I don't want to change the warbird, or the jav sttings, I want to change their usefulness in a basing context, by making a couple alterations to the current map. Right now, you play 2 warbirds 3 spiders against a 5 spider cram and you're sunk. It's a simple matter of concentrated firepower, and the team with 2 birds comes up short. Same with the 5 spid line up, teams with effective javs played 5 spid line up s _all_ season not because it was some sort of fad, but because it put more firepower into play and an extra body in the cram. I don't want to knock the spider out of it's place as the heart of a basing team, but right now there's very little incentive to go out and find those new strategies that it seems a lot of people want to see. Cramming is easy to learn, hard to break, and enfuriating to play against, and that's great! But it's so goddamn boring to play and watch, and aren't we here to see a test of skill from both teams, not just the ones on offense?

I simply disagree. Pallies only used a 5 spider line ONE game during the season and we only did that because of a weak turnout. we used at LEAST 5 different combinations during the 10 games, and I think we only lost 1.

I think by changing the map, you're interrupting the evolution of the strategy. You're saying that we've gone as far as we can with this map, it's like you're giving up on finding a strategy that's better than the cram. We got knocked out by the cram, and I don't want the map to change becuase I want all the suckers to be cramming next season so they can choke on what we bring.

BRING ON THE CRAM!

[spacedust]

Good talk looking forward to seeing what you do against it.

[Mattey]

Get rid of the two tiles that terriers and spiders wedge themselves against; it is by far the best solution, and will really open up the base $.

[Malladrin]

Actually, I was thinking of something more like this (on both sides or like this) :

See map

Doors could be implemented so it wouldn't be just to walk in...

Too me, I think Miau's idea of removing tiles that terriers and spiders lean on sounds fair.

Sufficent, before you reply to this thread again, this is not a discussion lining vs cramming. It's a discussion to remove a flaw in the map. Now I understand you'll defend your precious cramming until your fingers bleed of all the writing, but it's still not what we are talking about.
Furthermore, before cramming we had lining and we had fights in flagroom and in lower. After cramming we had cramming, see the difference? And don't bullshit me with FRfights for two cramming teams, there are none worth shit.
I'm not a defender of any strategy, I just want the complex basing back.

BTW I'm not even against cramming as an idea, if it could be broken within 10k points as easy as a good line...but it's atleast 30k+ better and takes up to 1/3 of a match to break.

[Sufficient]

Originally posted by Malladrin
Actually, I was thinking of something more like this (on both sides or like this) :

See map

Doors could be implemented so it wouldn't be just to walk in...

Too me, I think Miau's idea of removing tiles that terriers and spiders lean on sounds fair.

Sufficent, before you reply to this thread again, this is not a discussion lining vs cramming. It's a discussion to remove a flaw in the map. Now I understand you'll defend your precious cramming until your fingers bleed of all the writing, but it's still not what we are talking about.
Furthermore, before cramming we had lining and we had fights in flagroom and in lower. After cramming we had cramming, see the difference? And don't bullshit me with FRfights for two cramming teams, there are none worth shit.
I'm not a defender of any strategy, I just want the complex basing back.

BTW I'm not even against cramming as an idea, if it could be broken within 10k points as easy as a good line...but it's atleast 30k+ better and takes up to 1/3 of a match to break.

I never said it was lining vs cramming ... but other ppl basically said on these forums that they *do* in fact want lining back. They argued that lining brings about more fr battles. Well I argued back that successful lining, like *successful* cramming (no team has perfected successful cramming yet ... just look at the recs), decreases the amount of fr battles ... read my arguments and my *stance* before you post something ... have you read the part where I want to change the map by putting in 2 entrances? Or how I want the base weasel to be changed to the pub weasel? ... I, more than anyone want a map change with 2 entrances. If you want to argue the "morals" of cram .... read the previous discussion I had with Crvn and others ... I already told Crvn that I was done defending the cram.

[Sufficient]

Originally posted by Malladrin


BTW I'm not even against cramming as an idea, if it could be broken within 10k points as easy as a good line...but it's atleast 30k+ better and takes up to 1/3 of a match to break.

You are first ... overexaggerating ... if this was true ... then why didn't *ANY* of the "cram teams" win all their reg season games?

"I'm not even against cramming" ... sounds like you are ... and yes ... *CURRENTLY* it takes a lot of time to break a *successful* cram ... but wasn't this only 1 season of trying (and unfortunately I don't think some ppl even tried to really break it)?

[Miku19]

Ok, this is a text I wrote after Malladrin had posted for the first time, I couldn't post it for some mysterious reason though. I copy pasted this here, so excuse me if there are any bumps with previous posts:

I agree with the fact that fr battles is the most exciting and best thing about basing. What I would suggest is that someone (Arilou or another who can upload maps) would set up some arenas, and you could post your basing map ideas to him, and he would upload them. Then at the end of a certain perioid, we all would vote, which was the best map, and should we change the twlb map to it. Of course, this will be very hard to arrange, so some experienced basers could have a look at the maps before they're uploaded. Hey! It could be like the election of a president!
Everybody gets their own share of supporters, and attaches a text file with a list of all guys that have approved the map. Well, seems like I got carried away

Also, I've sent in my 3 freq basing map. Let's see what you think about it when it's online

[bloodzombie]

Ok, I stopped caring, do whatever you want to the base... I like it how it is, but Pallies will be ready to do some stomping no matter what the base looks like.


mattey's idea seems pretty good to me.. it's a very subtle difference that just makes cramming a little bit harder and getting in just a little bit easier.

[Facetious]

Yeah, while I think the cram can be defeated, sitting there trying to defeat it really isn't all that interesting, and that's what I see as the problem. I certainly think a subtle change (Mattey/Miau's suggestion) would be good to try (maybe for a while in TWD). I'm not sure what I'd think about an overhaul of the entire base, though.