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  • #16
    Definitely star cap imo

    Spaceships/trench wars are like sports. Thats why violence, paradise and racka are the greatest.

    In sports, you have competitive leagues. In those leagues, they have salaries, or cap spaces assigned, to maintain competitive balance. Conveniently, those ratings are already generally assigned in TW. Alternatively, there's a tradition set of having players rate (shit on) other players on Heaven or someone else's stream link before the draft.

    If you want to go draft league, its probably wise to adjust the ratings to be more accurate or take some of the other suggestions mentioned in this thread. I think there would be enough activity but idk tbh.

    If you want to go TWL style and try something completely new, then I think I like the idea of trying a free for all TWL, but there are star (*) caps on starting lines, people on the bench and/or roster.

    The positive consequence of doing TWDT now is that its way more inclusive than any league that I've been part of, and gets people playing again. I enjoy it, and most people do, for longer periods of time. I reckon thats the case for most people, as opposed to other leagues.


    Edit: paradise dmd me on these forums and said "yo add me on the top sports players list".
    Last edited by Riverside; 12-16-2021, 01:23 PM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by beam View Post
      or just raise the cap a star or two which kind of makes sense with the inflation of ratings over the past few seasons
      here's the distribution of star counts from 2020 and 2021... maybe .5 or 1 star max increase is needed?
      Click image for larger version

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Dwopple View Post

        here's the distribution of star counts from 2020 and 2021... maybe .5 or 1 star max increase is needed?
        Click image for larger version

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        Ogron, you're logged in on dwopple's account

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        • #19
          Originally posted by WillBy View Post

          Ogron, you're logged in on dwopple's account
          loool

          i don't need data to know TWDT star cap blows. how many seasons of telling ops that 6*s aren't worth 6* before they do something? they're worth like 3* and ruin TWDT-D and TWDT-J games going 2-10 every game and 10*s almost never win anything in any league anymore, because the low stars they're forced to play with don't belong in TWDT, they belong in TWD and TSL and Elim and Pub until they get good enough to be playable in TWDT.

          in base 10*s almost never win, especially spiders and terrs, although terrs have it by far the worst.

          how many consecutive seasons do i have to bang my head against a wall trying to break cram with three low-star spiders who don't know how to break cram? i made a huge cram breaking guide for spiders and they either don't read it or can't apply it. i don't mind losing to low-star terrs or being at a disadvantage, but at least let me lose in the fucking base.

          if you want data, though, it's clear: 10* terrs (or functionally 10* terrs not in a 6*/7*/8* slot) went from making the TWDT-B finals 83% of seasons to 36% in star cap seasons.



          it's almost impossible to win. 10* terrs have won 4 TWDT-B finals rounds out of 21 possible: Mikkiz (2), ogron (2). And 3 of those 4 wins were against another 10* terr in the final.

          There's 1 round of TWDT-B Finals won by a 10* terr against a low-star terr in the seven star cap seasons, and I had to play perfect and go basically 35-1 to barely win 15-13. Me and zid were on the same team and couldn't win games together because our spids couldn't break cram, so we had to sit when the other played in some insane asylum 66* cap season and alternate each round.

          There's a critical mass of spider power required to break cram that a watered down TWDT no longer hits. You can either go back to star slot TWDT or fix the cram and remove a block on each side. Cram sucks anyway and it's not fun or interesting, both breaking it and holding it. It's not an issue in TWLB or Basing Cup, but it's a disaster in TWDT-B the last 3 years.



          You'd probably still lose anyway as a 10* terr, but at least you'd have a fighting chance in the FR where you can meaningfully impact the game and potentially carry.

          If nothing is changed next season I'll probably sit TWDT out, it's not fun being stuck outside the base half the game unable to fight in the flagroom.
          Last edited by ogron; 12-17-2021, 01:31 AM.
          Best> hulk just left fu inc for blood to try to lower his rating
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          • #20
            Originally posted by Claushouse View Post

            There's a critical mass of spider power required to break cram that a watered down TWDT no longer hits. You can either go back to star slot TWDT or fix the cram and remove a block on each side. Cram sucks anyway and it's not fun or interesting, both breaking it and holding it. It's not an issue in TWLB or Basing Cup, but it's a disaster in TWDT-B the last 3 years.
            I am a strong advocate for this and have been suggesting it for a couple seasons now. Cram will still be better than lining without those two blocks but it will become much harder for 1) spids to corner camp and 2) Terr to sit inside the nook so they don't get repped out. The end result will be that most action will happen in the flagroom (flanking spiders could also gain more viability as the cram itself is weaker).

            We should put a 2-less-block map in BD2 or BD3 and play a few rounds, but I think this is a great solution to creating more dynamic games.
            Vehicle> ?help Will the division's be decided as well today?
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            • #21
              agree on making cram more difficult to hold. more action in the base makes everything better.


              1996 Minnesota State Pooping Champion

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Claushouse View Post
                in base 10*s almost never win, especially spiders and terrs, although terrs have it by far the worst
                You've brought some gr8 points and thought this through, at least from my perspective.

                Do you think giving a different max rating to terrs (and perhaps 10* spiders or sharks, if they have this problem: idk if they do), would be a band-aid solution to this problem?

                For example, a terrier has a max * cap of 9.5, and we deflate the other player ratings who play terr accordingly.

                For what its worth, I also think its time we introduce multi ship ratings to basing TWDT (with the option of refusing to play or be rated in a ship). It could be a good way to promote activity in TWD within the same players, and be able to use players more meaningfully. With that, we may have the potential to have more 1 or 2 more teams.
                Last edited by Riverside; 12-17-2021, 12:05 PM.

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                • #23
                  i agree about giving 3 base ratings to everyone

                  yes its a hassle, but it would certain open up some very interesting lineups

                  or maybe, put out a thread where people who wish to be rated in the other ships can post. at least that way the folks who determine ratings wont do extra work.

                  for instance i think im an 8 in spider which is fine, but if i were to be put into ter or shark, i am definitely less than 8.



                  1996 Minnesota State Pooping Champion

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                  • #24
                    gr8 to c 10* j1br1n1 playirs/c1pt1ns cryink they dun haf the t1l1nt 2 cirry squidrins to v1ct1ry when its an even playink field. every1 said i shouldnt b ciptin becuz i am scrubmin playir and low * compared to the othir gr8 ciptins n yet i izily haf b1st twdt recird of all times n i dun eefin play/entir trinch wirs or care. how cud this b? becuz all these 10* playirs that are cryink haf low t, cint vs in sub optimil cinditions, would rathir blame othirs than themsilfs, n rnt anything special as playirs for exampil i am bist sh1rk in trinch but ratid 8.5* n playirs like zidin r grintid 10* when i dun think i haf efir lostid a m1tch to her

                    that beink said i dun care if theres * cap or n1t or about beink playir but am rdy 2 difind t1t1l @ ne jinctire if neetid

                    ty 4 all ur wirk ikrin am not callink u a j1br1n1

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by viop11 View Post
                      gr8 to c 10* j1br1n1 playirs/c1pt1ns cryink they dun haf the t1l1nt 2 cirry squidrins to v1ct1ry when its an even playink field. every1 said i shouldnt b ciptin becuz i am scrubmin playir and low * compared to the othir gr8 ciptins n yet i izily haf b1st twdt recird of all times n i dun eefin play/entir trinch wirs or care. how cud this b? becuz all these 10* playirs that are cryink haf low t, cint vs in sub optimil cinditions, would rathir blame othirs than themsilfs, n rnt anything special as playirs for exampil i am bist sh1rk in trinch but ratid 8.5* n playirs like zidin r grintid 10* when i dun think i haf efir lostid a m1tch to her

                      that beink said i dun care if theres * cap or n1t or about beink playir but am rdy 2 difind t1t1l @ ne jinctire if neetid

                      ty 4 all ur wirk ikrin am not callink u a j1br1n1
                      What i got out of claus' stats was that its not really fair to put that much weight on the role of terrier, especially when there are other variables that are out of their control, specifically in TWDT. In this case, claus has chosen to specify cram, where spiders dont camp corners or push inside, which is the fastest way to get inside the flag room (imo, unless u haf josiphir or hulkstir or a2m or dog watir or mark or dwop ye fu sprack).

                      Every ship plays a different role. There are a different number of ships/players in each role. It makes sense to me to assign a different rating (scale) accordingly.

                      TWL wud b diff since spids r diff
                      Last edited by Riverside; 12-17-2021, 02:34 PM.

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                      • #26
                        I mean spider/shark/terrs have complex interactions. Spidering is a function of sharking. You can have 5 elite spiders and get blown out by worse spids across the board if your sharks don't hit a certain level of space creation and spreading out reps. Conversely, elite sharks can't cram properly if their spids aren't shooting down at enemy sharks and clearing out some of the fire so they can get down the entrance.

                        Spider and Shark values are more consistent across game states, and Terrier is a manic depressive off their lithium. A terr in the flagroom in a close game getting ports/bursts is worth significantly more than 10*. A terr stuck behind low-star spids in TWDT-B unable to break cram could be replaced by a pylon. On average, I think all 3 ships have similar value.

                        Terr is more gamestate dependent, and I would roughly rate the 3 ships like so:



                        Terr can absolutely carry and be worth 10* in the flagroom.

                        Even on the cram break, a terrier has a lot of value if the spider power hits a certain threshold.

                        I'm simply stating that the TWDT star cap system has created a weird pocket of weakness for 10* terrs on the cram break that isn't allowing them to manifest their strong points due to those spiders not hitting the critical mass of experience/talent required to break.

                        Also, cram sucks anyway. Cape, Vehicle, myself, and others have long advocated modifying the cram for TWDT-B. I'm not advocating for any changes in TWLB or Basing Cup. Cram breaking was absolutely incredible in TWLB 2021. The amount of FR fights was A+ in both TWLB and Basing Cup. There wasn't much issue in TWDT-B from 2004 to 2018. It's the star cap.

                        So fixing one or the other would be sufficient. Either going back to Star Slot TWDT or fixing the cram would still put 10* terrs at a disadvantage (See: my voluminous dt-b finals losses to Heaven pre Star Cap) but at least it would be playable and we'd have a more realistic chance of carrying in the flag room.

                        I expect to lose almost every TWDT-B season either way, but it would be nice if it was 'unlikely', not 'borderline impossible.'
                        Last edited by ogron; 12-17-2021, 04:17 PM.
                        Best> hulk just left fu inc for blood to try to lower his rating
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                        BOMBED> LOOOOOOOOL
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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by viop11 View Post
                          gr8 to c 10* j1br1n1 playirs/c1pt1ns cryink they dun haf the t1l1nt 2 cirry squidrins to v1ct1ry when its an even playink field.

                          [...]

                          ty 4 all ur wirk ikrin am not callink u a j1br1n1
                          how is TWDT an even playing field??

                          Basing Cup is literally the only theoretical level playing field in the game, where the talent is spread out via draft and you have to carry (assuming captains draft decently and not like TJ Hazuki).

                          TWL is obviously not a level playing field with 90% of the talent going to 3-4 squads out of 8-12 teams.

                          But how is TWDT an even playing field? The draft spreads out the talent, which is fine, but then the star cap guts you and punishes you if you're good. 10* warbirds end up playing with 6.5* players who go 2-10 every game, while an 8.5* player going 11-8 gets an 8* teammate who goes 10-9 combining for 21 kills, meaning a 10* has to somehow magically drop 19 kills while playing the last third of the match outnumbered because their low-star died out.

                          Even if a 10* and a 6.5* equalled an 8* and an 8.5* (which they don't, the latter is better) how is that an even playing field? You're already pricing in an elite performance from the 10* for the games to be 50/50.

                          That's not an even playing field -- you're just kneecapping elite players to articifically create close games with the star cap.

                          The winner of TWDT since 2019 has been more about who has the better spreadsheet and drafts more mis-rated players.

                          You're outdrafting other teams, not outplaying them.

                          The star slot system was less broken. Yeah, you had to play a 7* and 8* in every game, but it didn't have a cascade effect.

                          Star Slot System: If you drafted a better player for your 7* slot, you gained an advantage at that spot only
                          Star Cap System: You drafted a 7* who plays like an 8.5*, creating a cascade effect where you can now upgrade 2-3 other players with the extra 1.5* in your line and break the game

                          Example, my team's TWDT-B line this season:

                          10* ogron
                          9.5* Dwopple
                          8* Cig Smoke
                          10* Ease
                          9.5* Kess
                          7.5* Unlimited
                          7* Dak
                          6.5* Dad

                          Now imagine my captain had an IQ above 5 and drafted Brethal (8*) instead of you in Kess (9.5*)'s place. Both played at the same level. Now look at the upgrades we could make:

                          10* ogron
                          9.5* Dwopple
                          8* Cig Smoke
                          10* Ease
                          BRETHAL
                          LIONHEART
                          EKKO

                          6.5* Dad

                          Because of the star cap system, getting a misrated player of Brethal's caliber lets me make two massive spider upgrades without losing anything at the Kess spot, all because TWDT ops misrated several players.

                          That team is going to the finals instead of losing in quarters because the star cap system has turned TWDT into Moneyball.

                          The star slot system rewarded drafting well and provided some meaningful advantages, but the star cap system has snowballed it an absurd degree.

                          Shitting on 10* warbirds, javelins, and basers because you outdrafted their captain in a broken system is incredibly trashy and unfair.



                          Best> hulk just left fu inc for blood to try to lower his rating
                          RaCka> lool
                          BOMBED> LOOOOOOOOL
                          Best> this guy is a business man

                          top 100 basers

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                          • #28
                            vio keep my name out of your mouth, you are trash at this zone. there is no player in this game who would ever say you're a better shark than me. imagine bragging about winning as an 8*, if i was an 8* I would have won dtb 15x in a row.

                            you are a clown, a mascot, you are here for cheap lols. imagine literally going 0-10 in twlb LAST season and pretending to be a good player, fk outta here u dog shit player

                            https://twl.trenchwars.com/players

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                            • #29
                              There's no need for requiring a certain amount of 8*s, for example. Just increase the amount of teams and the talent is more widespread. We should call it something else though to differentiate it from TWDT which caters more toward inclusivity.
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                              • #30
                                I totally agree with those who are for doing away with the star cap system in TWDT this season. The star rating system was NOT the original way TWDT was done and while it seemed to be a good idea to implement it back 7 seasons ago or w/e it was, its sole purpose was to GROW the zone during a time we were seeing rapid decline in numbers for Continuum in general. It was to encourage new players to form TWD squads and give them an ability to taste a competitive league environment to then in turn incentivize squad formation for TWD leading to TWL as our main goal. Since the zone is no longer growing in population besides old vets from other dead or dying zones there is no longer any reason to base what has now become the most competitive league in the zone off this model. It IS broken and ogron is completely correct in his analysis in these regards. It is silly that a 15 year old player who is a 6 star is playing games while 7 and 8 stars are being benched. I fully support TWDT with NO STAR CAPS. This will also allow MORE people to play too as subbing in certain players needing to match certain star requirements (which is VERY limiting for a captain and team) will be completely done away with.

                                END THE STAR CAP FOR TWDT!!!
                                TWDT-J CHAMPION POWER 2018
                                TWDT-B CHAMPION POWER 2018
                                TWDT TRIPLE CROWN MEMBER POWER 2018
                                TSL TRIPLE CROWN FINALIST 2018
                                TSLD CHAMPION 2018
                                TSLB CHAMPION 2018

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