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**Exalt** · 04-18-2022, 01:22 PM

[QUOTE=ogron;n1358991][SIZE=48px]Star Cap[/SIZE]
I played on a 40.5* team this season in warbird, 1.5* below the line, against the eventual TWDT-D champs in the playoffs, and we lost 50-49 Round 3, and felt competitive with every team. We've seen teams with good chemistry excel down 1*-2* against full lines in TWDT-J and TWDT-D. I think if it's 3* for base, 2* seems logical for dueling.[/QUOTE]

This is because *s are mostly useless for dueling outside of a very specific few players who are head and shoulders above everyone else. You could take 90% of all 7-9* wbs and plug and play them into a lineup with very little to no dropoff or improvement regarding actual ability. The differences are entirely based on team chemistry, playstyles, ability to work in a team, etc.

Outside of certain guys like a 10* Racka who can change teams all by himself, you don't see a big difference between a 9* Rasaq and a 7.5* Ravage. You just won't, because *s between the majority of players are not a big deal at all. You will however see a DRAMATIC difference between a 7.5* Ravage and a 7.5* Jessup though, to a point where the Jessup team likely loses every single game while the Ravage team does not. They will remain the same * rating though, because some random evaluator will think "Jessup can go 10-10 in dds and does well in elim" and justify it that way, even though people know deep down a selfish 10-10 with 0 teaming is always a loss.

**RageRitual** · 04-18-2022, 03:05 PM

It baffles my mind how a teams are losing here with 8-14* leads over their opponents. Exalt is probably right on his point, but if you have five 9* players and five 7.5* players (which equals a 7.5* lead) you should have a landslide of a game in the 9* players favour. Also if ravage is 7.5* he is under starred.

**ogron** · 04-18-2022, 04:40 PM

[quote=Exalt]This is because *s are mostly useless for dueling outside of a very specific few players who are head and shoulders above everyone else. You could take 90% of all 7-9* wbs and plug and play them into a lineup with very little to no dropoff or improvement regarding actual ability.[/quote]

this is just not accurate at all.

the difference between Draft, Yeh, Hellzno!, Ravage, Major Crisis, Zeebu, Aselsan, Rojo at 7.5* and Beam, Steadman, Tripin, Dak, Siaxis and Peru at 9* is massive. you can cherrypick Rasaq choking in the playoffs at 9* or find a misrated 7.5* playing well, which proves nothing. The average 9* blows the average 7.5* out of the water.

i simply said a team with great chemistry that is motivated can be competitive down 1.5* and potentially win. it's still objectively a disadvantage. if you have a 2* advantage in a lineup, your winrate goes from 50% to 60%. The difference between a 7* and a 9* is 2*, and the winrate goes up 10%. The data already strongly refutes your argument.

siaxis dropped like 19-10 in the TWDT-D finals a year ago as an 8.5*, then got bumped up to a 9.5* and wasn't able to be anywhere near as impactful. Sprackle got nerfed and his impact was severely lessened as well. There's dozens of concrete examples like this.

you're comparing apples to oranges. 7.5*s and 8*s are playing in a star cap league... they get more talent around them, making them looker better. the vast majority of players who get bumped up see their impact lessen significantly. Lockdown was winning everything left and right as a low-star coming back to the game, and since getting bumped up to a 10* in WB and a 9.5* in spider hasn't won anything. If he was a 7.5* in wb and spider right now he would win every season.

9*s and 10*s have weaker teammates. you're not getting to see the 7.5* player with the same teammates as the 9* player. winning as a 10* in star cap is unbelievably difficult, it's arguably harder than winning TWL, because the league is unfair towards elite players to artificially create a balanced league.

this thread is about a star cap for a league positioned between TWL and TWDT -- finding the ideal between roster flexibility/choosing your own teammates and maintaining competitive balance -- not your never-ending 17 year quest spanning 500 forum posts arguing how everyone in this game except Racka and Ease are shit and we should all be as miserable as you.

**Exalt** · 04-18-2022, 09:34 PM

[QUOTE=ogron;n1359015]

this is just not accurate at all.

the difference between Draft, Yeh, Hellzno!, Ravage, Major Crisis, Zeebu, Aselsan, Rojo at 7.5* and Beam, Steadman, Tripin, Dak, Siaxis and Peru at 9* is massive. you can cherrypick Rasaq choking in the playoffs at 9* or find a misrated 7.5* playing well, which proves nothing. The average 9* blows the average 7.5* out of the water.

i simply said a team with great chemistry that is motivated can be competitive down 1.5* and potentially win. it's still objectively a disadvantage. if you have a 2* advantage in a lineup, your winrate goes from 50% to 60%. The difference between a 7* and a 9* is 2*, and the winrate goes up 10%. The data already strongly refutes your argument.

siaxis dropped like 19-10 in the TWDT-D finals a year ago as an 8.5*, then got bumped up to a 9.5* and wasn't able to be anywhere near as impactful. Sprackle got nerfed and his impact was severely lessened as well. There's dozens of concrete examples like this.

you're comparing apples to oranges. 7.5*s and 8*s are playing in a star cap league... they get more talent around them, making them looker better. the vast majority of players who get bumped up see their impact lessen significantly. Lockdown was winning everything left and right as a low-star coming back to the game, and since getting bumped up to a 10* in WB and a 9.5* in spider hasn't won anything. If he was a 7.5* in wb and spider right now he would win every season.

9*s and 10*s have weaker teammates. you're not getting to see the 7.5* player with the same teammates as the 9* player. winning as a 10* in star cap is unbelievably difficult, it's arguably harder than winning TWL, because the league is unfair towards elite players to artificially create a balanced league.

this thread is about a star cap for a league positioned between TWL and TWDT -- finding the ideal between roster flexibility/choosing your own teammates and maintaining competitive balance -- not your never-ending 17 year quest spanning 500 forum posts arguing how everyone in this game except Racka and Ease are shit and we should all be as miserable as you.[/QUOTE]

You just proved my point here. Your argument doesn't work, and it was stolen from Saiyan to begin with to try to explain why Violence could win TWDTD and TWDTB as a low * captain. The reason is because Violence actually knows how to judge players talent far better than most of the game, because a person being talented themselves doesn't mean they know how to evaluate others. They only know how to judge people compared to themselves, which is a useless skill if they always are used to playing with other 10*s.

Siaxis dropping 19-10 as an 8.5* and not doing it as a 9.5* has absolutely no relevance or correlation whatsoever. He's the same player regardless of what * rating he is. It has literally no relevance, because almost nobody puts up 19 kills consistently, while those that do are 10* players. Everyone else is a mix between 7*-9* on any given day, because almost nobody is consistent in this game week to week. Some players catch fire for a few weeks and then revert back to their normal selves, while others hit slumps for a while. It doesn't change who they are skill-wise. They aren't suddenly a higher * player for catching fire a couple weeks that won't last, nor are they lower * for being in a slump for a short period. Consistency is the one thing in this game that almost nobody has, and again, those that do tend to be 10*s. For everyone else besides the absolute worst players, it chalks up to teamwork, chemistry, playstyle, etc on how well they do.

Lockdown didn't change as a player either being a low * or a high *. The difference is Lockdown stopped logging in daily, so suddenly he isn't consistent. It's literally that simple. He didn't suddenly lose all his skill by not logging in, but he lost his consistency. Also, players are almost always rated incorrectly because the same few static players rate everyone year after year, and their opinions aren't always correct. Even those who do have good opinions get overruled by others with shit ones, because again, egos and favoritism takes effect naturally, not to mention the fact that the best players don't always know how to judge talent. Michael Jordan is a godawful NBA owner and talent evaluator, but he's the GOAT. Lebron James is a awful player-GM who chose to bring in a washed up Russell Westbrook to LA and got rid of the role player glue guys who helped actually win a title like Caruso. This kind of thing matters.

Case in point: If you were drafting a WB Cup lineup and started with a core of Paky Dude, Rasaq, and Golden Duck (or whoever their third Wolf player is), would you draft Danslams at 8* or RageRitual at 7*? That's a rushing core lineup who all do best when they push up arrow. DanSlams would likely ruin their chemistry, while RageRitual would not. RageRitual would be the better choice in almost every instance all things being equal in terms of show rate and such. This alone shows why * rating is less important than playstyle, teamwork, team chemistry, etc. I never see any of the TWDT caps mention this kind of thing though. All I see are guys like Saiyan shitting on Violence for winning pretending it's somehow easy mode, as if it's not literally the exact same game Saiyan is playing. Saiyan got to choose every single player on his team and still lost, while some of the most impactful players in this past TWDT were lower * players. Cripple being a 7.5* and basically wrecking everyone the entire playoffs should say something, but you will ignore it since it would hurt whatever narrative you want to push at the moment. I think that's the "game is harder bcuz I'm a higher * player" or something, which is fucking nonsense.

Perhaps you should drop your 10 year 5000 post quest of pretending this game revolves around you and only you, and that your opinions are the only thing that matters.

**ogron** · 04-18-2022, 11:17 PM

[quote=Exalt]you will ignore it since it would hurt whatever narrative you want to push at the moment. I think that's the "game is harder bcuz I'm a higher * player" or something, which is fucking nonsense.[/quote]

cripple was playing with 3 TWLD champion players (Racka, Beam, and Rough) who've recently won together, on top of being misrated. He should probably be an 8*. He looked like an 8.5*-9* because, again, he's playing in a superstar line and only costs 7.5*.

playing as a 10* terr in star cap TWDT-B 2022 is significantly harder than Basing Cup 2021, which was a draft without a star cap. if you don't think the game is harder playing as a 10* in a star cap, you're a fucking moron.

and i don't think saiyan's argument was against violence's capping, which has been excellent, it was against him talking shit while playing as an 8* shark and winning TWDT-B as a [I]player[/I].

what do you know about playing as a 10* anyway? you got benched as a 7.5* in your only ship for a baser.

**Exalt** · 04-19-2022, 01:13 AM

[QUOTE=ogron;n1359023]

cripple was playing with 3 TWLD champion players (Racka, Beam, and Rough) who've recently won together, on top of being misrated. He should probably be an 8*. He looked like an 8.5*-9* because, again, he's playing in a superstar line and only costs 7.5*.

playing as a 10* terr in star cap TWDT-B 2022 is significantly harder than Basing Cup 2021, which was a draft without a star cap. if you don't think the game is harder playing as a 10* in a star cap, you're a fucking moron.

and i don't think saiyan's argument was against violence's capping, which has been excellent, it was against him talking shit while playing as an 8* shark and winning TWDT-B as a [I]player[/I].

what do you know about playing as a 10* anyway? you got benched as a 7.5* in your only ship for a baser.

[/QUOTE]

I specifically said * rating is not as useful in [I]dueling[/I] leagues. Learn to read. Stick to what you know, which is not wb/jav. You didn't address a single thing I said, only added more nonsense.

Oh, and being a team player and knowing when a player is on a hot streak is something that takes a higher IQ than you have. No wonder you couldn't understand why I'd be perfectly fine with benching for a player that MVPed nearly every single round of the playoffs. Your ego is too large to understand.

**Jessup** · 04-19-2022, 04:14 AM

[QUOTE=Exalt;n1359009]

This is because *s are mostly useless for dueling outside of a very specific few players who are head and shoulders above everyone else. You could take 90% of all 7-9* wbs and plug and play them into a lineup with very little to no dropoff or improvement regarding actual ability. The differences are entirely based on team chemistry, playstyles, ability to work in a team, etc.

Outside of certain guys like a 10* Racka who can change teams all by himself, you don't see a big difference between a 9* Rasaq and a 7.5* Ravage. You just won't, because *s between the majority of players are not a big deal at all. You will however see a DRAMATIC difference between a 7.5* Ravage and a 7.5* Jessup though, to a point where the Jessup team likely loses every single game while the Ravage team does not. They will remain the same * rating though, [B]because some random evaluator will think "Jessup can go 10-10 in dds and does well in elim"[/B] and justify it that way, even though people know deep down a selfish 10-10 with 0 teaming is always a loss. [/QUOTE]

Keep my name outta ur fking mouff. The only random evaluator is you.

[img]https://media.giphy.com/media/gZeLi40OKFj06I2Bf3/giphy-downsized.gif[/img]

**saiyan** · 04-19-2022, 08:50 AM

[QUOTE=Exalt;n1359019]

You just proved my point here. Your argument doesn't work, and it was stolen from Saiyan to begin with to try to explain why Violence could win TWDTD and TWDTB as a low * captain. The reason is because Violence actually knows how to judge players talent far better than most of the game, because a person being talented themselves doesn't mean they know how to evaluate others. They only know how to judge people compared to themselves, which is a useless skill if they always are used to playing with other 10*s.

Siaxis dropping 19-10 as an 8.5* and not doing it as a 9.5* has absolutely no relevance or correlation whatsoever. He's the same player regardless of what * rating he is. It has literally no relevance, because almost nobody puts up 19 kills consistently, while those that do are 10* players. Everyone else is a mix between 7*-9* on any given day, because almost nobody is consistent in this game week to week. Some players catch fire for a few weeks and then revert back to their normal selves, while others hit slumps for a while. It doesn't change who they are skill-wise. They aren't suddenly a higher * player for catching fire a couple weeks that won't last, nor are they lower * for being in a slump for a short period. Consistency is the one thing in this game that almost nobody has, and again, those that do tend to be 10*s. For everyone else besides the absolute worst players, it chalks up to teamwork, chemistry, playstyle, etc on how well they do.

Lockdown didn't change as a player either being a low * or a high *. The difference is Lockdown stopped logging in daily, so suddenly he isn't consistent. It's literally that simple. He didn't suddenly lose all his skill by not logging in, but he lost his consistency. Also, players are almost always rated incorrectly because the same few static players rate everyone year after year, and their opinions aren't always correct. Even those who do have good opinions get overruled by others with shit ones, because again, egos and favoritism takes effect naturally, not to mention the fact that the best players don't always know how to judge talent. Michael Jordan is a godawful NBA owner and talent evaluator, but he's the GOAT. Lebron James is a awful player-GM who chose to bring in a washed up Russell Westbrook to LA and got rid of the role player glue guys who helped actually win a title like Caruso. This kind of thing matters.

Case in point: If you were drafting a WB Cup lineup and started with a core of Paky Dude, Rasaq, and Golden Duck (or whoever their third Wolf player is), would you draft Danslams at 8* or RageRitual at 7*? That's a rushing core lineup who all do best when they push up arrow. DanSlams would likely ruin their chemistry, while RageRitual would not. RageRitual would be the better choice in almost every instance all things being equal in terms of show rate and such. This alone shows why * rating is less important than playstyle, teamwork, team chemistry, etc. I never see any of the TWDT caps mention this kind of thing though. All I see are guys like Saiyan shitting on Violence for winning pretending it's somehow easy mode, as if it's not literally the exact same game Saiyan is playing. Saiyan got to choose every single player on his team and still lost, while some of the most impactful players in this past TWDT were lower * players. Cripple being a 7.5* and basically wrecking everyone the entire playoffs should say something, but you will ignore it since it would hurt whatever narrative you want to push at the moment. I think that's the "game is harder bcuz I'm a higher * player" or something, which is fucking nonsense.

Perhaps you should drop your 10 year 5000 post quest of pretending this game revolves around you and only you, and that your opinions are the only thing that matters. [/QUOTE]

Willing to put your money where your mouth is and take a rating increase to 9* until 2023? I'm sure Ogron can work something out.

**RageRitual** · 04-19-2022, 02:37 PM

[QUOTE=Jessup;n1359027]

Keep my name outta ur fking mouff. The only random evaluator is you.

[img]https://media.giphy.com/media/gZeLi40OKFj06I2Bf3/giphy-downsized.gif[/img][/QUOTE]

LOL! <3 the meme's that come from that slap.

**ogron** · 04-19-2022, 04:14 PM

[QUOTE=Exalt;n1359024]
Oh, and being a team player and knowing when a player is on a hot streak is something that takes a higher IQ than you have. No wonder you couldn't understand why I'd be perfectly fine with benching for a player that MVPed nearly every single round of the playoffs. Your ego is too large to understand.
[/QUOTE]

i hope to someday develop the giga-brain IQ to get benched going 6-10, 5-9, 1-6, 3-7 and spin that into a genius tactical decision that others couldn't have made.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/64bdNoy.png[/img]

**Exalt** · 04-19-2022, 05:09 PM

[QUOTE=ogron;n1359035]

i hope to someday develop the giga-brain IQ to get benched going 6-10, 5-9, 1-6, 3-7 and spin that into a genius tactical decision that others couldn't have made.[/QUOTE]

You're such a loser man lol. You literally never responded to anything I said except with random insults that have nothing to do with anything. You are unable to debate or have a real conversation, which shows you have the maturity of a 5 year old. You just need everyone to accept your garbage opinions as facts as if they mean anything, even though you're a baser that has no idea how to play any ship besides Terr. I see you neg in spider in BD all the time, so you aren't even good at other basing ships.

**ogron** · 04-19-2022, 05:21 PM

[QUOTE=Exalt;n1359036]
you're a baser that has no idea how to play any ship besides Terr. [/QUOTE]

i played in back-to-back TWLD finals and won TWDT-D as a 9*... and started TWLB finals in spider, and won TWDT-B in spider...

and you just watched me go 34-24 against your team in TWDT-D in a 40.5* line in the playoffs against 3 TWLD champion players in a 42* line while you went 12-25 as a low-star.

you also spent 3 months practicing non-stop and I didn't play a single DD. i think you have brain damage.

**Riverside** · 04-19-2022, 07:31 PM

[U]Suggestions:[/U]

its usually going 2 b imperfect imo, 2 rate humins @ sumthing.

Howefir:

(If this isn't already happening): Prior to rating individual players, it would help if player critics/judgis and the player base knew/saw goals or ranges of how many 10*, 9.5, 9s, 6s 7.5s, etc that TW leagues aim to have (could be league by league).

[U]When assigning playir ratings:[/U]

In [B]wb / jav[/B] I wud considir rating criteria 2 be:[LIST][*]Ability 2 stay in game[*]Ability 2 push[*]Ability 2 team[*]Aim[/LIST]In [B]spidir / terr / shark[/B][LIST][*]Ability 2 b in cirrict position[*]Ability 2 stay alif 4 team and / or ability 2 push[*]Aim[/LIST]
To help [B]scale the ratings[/B], for each criteria, I would select the top 2-4 playirs as 10*'s (relatif 2 actif playirs):

[U]Exampil: [B]SARGIR, CRIPPIL[/B][/U]
[I][B]Rating scales[/B] for spidirs based off categories: positioning, etc.[/I]

Ability 2 b in cirrict position: [B]10*[/B]
Ability 2 stay alif 4 team: [B]10*[/B]
*Ability 2 push 4 team: [B]10*[/B]
Aim[B]: 10*

*[/B]imo they situationally push, choose diff types of spidirs for this category if any1 vs, sup [B]parad[/B][B][B]ise[/B] [/B]n[B] sprackil[/B]

[B]Overall spidir rating: sargir / crippil- 10*[/B]

**Exalt** · 04-19-2022, 08:51 PM

[QUOTE=ogron;n1359038]

i played in back-to-back TWLD finals and won TWDT-D as a 9*... and started TWLB finals in spider, and won TWDT-B in spider...

and you just watched me go 34-24 against your team in TWDT-D in a 40.5* line in the playoffs against 3 TWLD champion players in a 42* line while you went 12-25 as a low-star.

you also spent 3 months practicing non-stop and I didn't play a single DD. i think you have brain damage.
[/QUOTE]

You've never been close to a 9* wb, and if you were rated as a 9*, then everyone in TW who rated you had brain damage. That alone shows how dead this game was when the rest of us quit for years.

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