So this is how it is

[Dreamwin]

Originally Posted by Ogron

Originally Posted by maketso View Post
Why do we have this veto system if ppl just yell veto for no real reason ?

Yeah, several people have said this is a terrible idea before it even started, and that seems to be what it is coming down to.

Originally Posted by TWDT Rules
This is a give-and-take power being afforded to caps. Vetoes are meant to be used for what you perceive to be a very unbalanced trade. If captains are abusing it and simply attempting to veto anything they perceive as not helping their own squad, we may revert it back to a TWDT Op review process.

It's just being abused with no legitimate cause or reason other than out of spite or to hinder other caps, just going back to the old system. It's pretty pathetic.

TWDT Ops will be judging all trades, this experiment is over.

I'm pushing through the Commodo/Dreamwin trade, it's fine. I will talk to Turban about my trade with Maketso, I expect it to pass through as well.

Ok. I dont really want to complain but since no one else will bring this up, I feel like I have to.

Ok, so when my trade is getting approved by all the other captains and is legitimate, you alone decide that it is not fair and deny it from happening.

When you are trading and majority of the other captains veto your trade - you alone decide to change the rules and get your trade through.

Not to mention raising Absent(Player from the package)from 6* to 7* in the dark. Ok. Few days after the draft I heard it was mentioned in the DT cap chat 3 hours before the draft. Ok. Does it say somewhere I have to be around in caps chat 3 hours before the draft? How am I suppose to know? I showed up 5 mins before the draft.
Your comments when I talked to you in-game:
"Stayon got it raised prior to draft" - "He is in your team"
"You are the best captain overall in the draft" - "You got a huge edge already, stop complaining"

Player of the Week: Dreamwin. Dreamwin is an idiot and not anywhere near as good at this game as he thinks he is, but...

My 2 cents:
-It doesnt matter if player from my team got Absent raised before the draft, anyone could have traded stayon. There was no official announcement about it and he was inside a package(where every player is meant to be a 6* or lower). He was the key factor I traded the package so early.
-Talk about adjusting fairness measured by skill level of a captain. Any1 remember 2014 TWDT when your best buddy zidane got the first pick in draft and first pick in the FA draft. Being by far the best overall captain in the draft skill-wise.


I dont really care in the end. You are not going to change anything anyway. I will thrive to the finals in two leagues regardless of all this. Just felt like this should be brought up for discussion.

Thanks for all your other efforts towards TWDT, though. I really appreciate it, even if it seems like I dont.

[kess]

Talking about how the veto system has failed and ppl are just voting out of spite, when claus himself overruled the system when he saw fit, is pretty ironic. And now he is mad his trade is getting vetod and is gonna talk with turban so that it passes. This is what happens when u cause your system to fail.

And changing ppl's rating 3 hours b4 the draft is pretty crappy too, ppl arent supposed to be on top of these things 24/7

[mtine]

It has begun.

[Crescent Seal]

yeah personally, i wasn't happy about that. the veto system was working just fine so i'm not sure why it was necessary to remove it. But I guess we don't have a say in anything since you run the league and do the HoNs so w/e.

[forwards]

down with staff etc

[MHz]

Despite my initial reservations, I have found the veto system to work pretty well and most caps act sensibly until now. You and Claus, however, have a personal beef relating back to him intervening in the Kess for NL>Trigger+Downfall trade, after it came out that DF had activity issues. It seems (on the surface) that you've now deliberately vetoed his trade for Tsunami out of spite. The difference is, Claus had a good reason to intervene in the Kess trade, when it became clear that DF couldn't show and Skat's team would've suffered. I can't, however, see any rationale behind your veto of the Tsunami trade and you didn't provide one. That goes against the spirit of the veto system.

Personally I always thought the veto system was open to prejudices of this kind - but it kinda seemed to be working until now. Veto system or not, however, the draft league is being organised and presented really well. Unless there is serious bias or impropriety (which there wasn't: Claus was one of the few captains who vouched for the Kess trade before the DF activity concerns came out), how trades are confirmed or denied is really a footnote to the draft league, so I'm not sure this whole song & dance was really called for.

[Zeebu]

inactive people get drafted and traded every year. usually the captains will try to contact the player(s) in question. they'll also ask the cap they're trading with. if skat didnt care enough to ask anyone any questions i cant see why it would have been nixed. or rather, the only reason i can see it being cancelled is if the other parties involved were answering falsely to any questions asked. in that case it isnt being clever, its being an asshole.

[Ricko]

not that it's overly relevant, but Absent being upgraded is definitely the right choice - at a 6* he would be so underrated, tbh having played with him and known him better than most, he's easily an 8*, not the 7* he's been given

[ogron]

1) The Absent rating change several hours before the draft (even with me announcing it to all caps in draft chat and at Stayon's behest) was definitely a fuck-up on my part, I apologize for that.

I have a policy of not changing star-levels post-draft -- there were 0 changes in 2015. In my first year as TWDT head in 2014, I got tons of requests to lower star ratings. I lowered star ratings for Mighty and Thix to help them as they were the worst team and emergency replacement caps and didn't have time to make a draft plan, then others that seemed wrong or unfair, I lowered some to avoid forfeits the day of, and it just didn't end. I lowered ratings for every team except my own, and it's just a never-ending circle ("You lowered x player for x captain, you need to lower x for me!")

2) Zidane was #1 in 2013, Zidane was #1 in 2014, Stayon #2 and Ease #3 in 2015, Commodo #1 and you #3 in 2016. The draft slot randomization has been incredibly unlucky in giving the best players high draft slots and big advantages. I've pushed for reform and making the captain's draft themselves to even the playing field, but every time I do multiple captains threaten to quit, so I have to balance having good captains to ensure players have a good experience vs. captains getting a fair start. I believe the player experience is more important.

You and Commodo are the only two 2-league captains who start TWL Finals, and you got 2 of the best draft slots. You start with a tremendous advantage getting yourselves for free, then Ease and Stayon, while other captains are mostly 1-leaguers drafting 1 league players to start. I've made a conscious decision to allow the possibility of this advantage and for 2015 and 2016 moved the first-ever live streaming draft done by a 3rd party to ensure fairness. All prior TWDT Ops did the draft offline by themselves.

These inherent advantages do not factor into any decisions made as some way to "balance it out." I would have nixed anyone trying to abuse Skatarius and knowingly dump an inactive player onto them.

3) I eliminated bidding for 2014, 2015, 2016 to ensure that players can no longer be dropped simply to gain their stars for bidding and so that every player who signs up has a team (there used to be 60-70 people rotting away in FA.) There were previous TWDT head ops (I won't say who) leaking bids to their team's captains to cheat, so I just completely got rid of it.

4) TWDT Ops have decided on Trades every season. This is the first and only season where I tested Captains having that power, and I warned from the start I'd remove it if people were abusing it. I see people yelling VETO without explanation or due cause, and targeting really innocuous trades that have no reason to stopped. The intention, as I laid it out, is to suss out really inequitable major trades that are very imbalanced or done in bad faith. Instead I see you and others targeting trades out of pure self-interest or spite.

5) You keep attacking my integrity, but in the three years prior to me running TWDT, 7 of the 9 winners were Pandora/Thunder caps. Since I've run TWDT, they've won 1 out of 6. I have deliberately reached out to Dice, Fierce, and other cores to increase Captain diversity and try to have a more representative leadership, and you act like I'm doing everything in my power to stop you from winning, when Dicegeon players have won 4 of the last 6 titles. I've eliminated shady shit like bidding, am the first TWDT Op to ever stream the draft lottery live by a third party, and I've chosen to make my life a miserable hellscape by running this league (which I don't want to do at all, I would much rather just play, but no one else is winning to run it properly), moreso by intervening in trades, which really makes people hate you with a passion.

I tried to pawn off the process to avoid the hate, but Captains aren't taking the process of veto'ing trades seriously, and it's going to devolve into game theory, approval/veto trading, and other selfish, darwinistic bullshit. As I've said, I reject the latter, and believe the player experience comes first, which is why I annul trades. To me, the TWDT experience of the 30 players under Skatarius is more important than rewarding Stayon for making a skilled trade of pawning off a player who can't show 66% of the regular season for a 2-league superstar. I respect and understand the desire for a league where good captains are rewarded and bad captains punished in the trade world, but I reject it. The time to excel is during the actual draft.

I also tried to pawn off the Player Star Ratings to the captains in 2015, and it turned out the worst ratings in my tenure. Not only did half the captains not take it seriously, others gave enemy captains 10s in every league to try to game the system and lock them out of using themselves as low stars, so this isn't the first time I've tried giving captains more power and finding it abused.

I blame myself to trying to avoid all the hate and being completely miserable in divesting these powers, since dealing with rejected trades (or non-rejected -- I had Zidane ?ignore me for a week because I didn't veto another captain's trade after yelling at me for 3 hours, or Stayon pming me and telling me I'm a clown and having to argue for 2 hours over our philosophical differences on what TWDT is and should be) is extremely contentious.

I approved the Easter delay last year despite the loud and vociferous objections of Ease and Zidane, and at the detriment of my own TWDT team, and I've done everything possible to make TWDT more fair, honest, equitable, and inclusive, and yes, I will be making trade decisions again, alongside Turban and Heaven. You don't have a responsibility to the league when voting for approval or vetoes, and you and Stayon in trying to pawn off Downfall and veto'ing w/o explanation or cause have shown you don't feel any. The difference is that I do, and I trust my judgment and that of Turban's above yours in dealing with trade matters.

I think there is significant, tangible evidence that I have run this league over the past three years as fairly as I can, and that I will evaluate trades honestly.

If you think I'm dishonest and cheating simply to help myself win and going out of my way to ensure you lose, you're welcome to file a complaint with upper staff and have me removed as head of TWDT. This isn't fun for me, I don't get paid, I've already won every TWDT medal including as a Captain, I'm burnt out having run this 3 years in a row + writing both TWL and TWDT Hot or Nots, and having to write these sorts of posts and deal with complaints and accusations in-game nonstop just saps everything out of me, especially when I've done everything possible to make TWDT as good of a league as possible. If they want me gone, I'm happy to step down.

The one thing I won't do, however, is let you trade rape dumbfucks like Skatarius or TJ Hazuki and negatively impact the 30 players under them. I'd rather be hated and unpopular and unhappy than not do my job properly as head of TWDT.

[field]

fuck you ogron you midget turtle fucker

your fate will be like the whores of Cologne

takbeer

[Stayon]

inactive people get drafted and traded every year. usually the captains will try to contact the player(s) in question. they'll also ask the cap they're trading with. if skat didnt care enough to ask anyone any questions i cant see why it would have been nixed. or rather, the only reason i can see it being cancelled is if the other parties involved were answering falsely to any questions asked. in that case it isnt being clever, its being an asshole.

Thank you Zeeb, for highlighting what seems obvious on inactive people, it happens every year. And yes, I was never asked. Much like Commodo and Tiny, both never asked me or Downfall about it and almost traded for him too, which both can confirm. I did my job. The so called "experience of 30 mans" is determined by little things such as this...simple questions to their players. Or League's Operators decisions to cap people they consider and I quote "filled with retards who'll do a bad job, can you cap again?"

Talking about how the veto system has failed and ppl are just voting out of spite, when claus himself overruled the system when he saw fit, is pretty ironic. And now he is mad his trade is getting vetod and is gonna talk with turban so that it passes. This is what happens when u cause your system to fail.

And changing ppl's rating 3 hours b4 the draft is pretty crappy too, ppl arent supposed to be on top of these things 24/7

this and few other things.

The one thing I won't do, however, is let you trade rape dumbfucks like Skatarius or TJ Hazuki and negatively impact the 30 players under them. I'd rather be hated and unpopular and unhappy than not do my job properly as head of TWDT.

League Operator,

Let's take a second and analyze TJ's Hazuki trade with myself and now a very similar one between Maketso and Stannis, who's trade was just approved by Turban once a said system failed, when it started to itch too much.

I had a pretty good base team, good jav team, bad wb team. TJ had a good base team, pretty good wb team and really bad jav team.

The trade?

TJ got Havok and I got Tarnish. On paper it looked like a bad trade for TJ as Havok was not very active and Tarnish was one of the hot's last season in twld. But.. TJ felt he could trade away one of his 3/4 wbs (with the others being 2 or 3 of Skepsis, Welt and Geio), so he could afford to take that risk and grab a little jav power to try to snatch him wins for the playoff race. Myself even if on paper I wouldn't of traded Tarnish, but if I had 3 or 4 wbs, I would of traded a wb to either improve my jav or base if I was on his shoes, no questions asked. Everyone has to make decisions regarding their weaker leagues with either improving or downgrading to futher stack their best leagues.

The result? TJ's wbs barely showed despite him hanging with the Fierce Crew, his basing team flopped due to not having a real shark, Mikkiz showed half the games, Havok did no damage in the few games he showed. What about Tarnish? Well, he showed almost all games but managed to neg almost every single one of them, on a bad wb team that I had. He did the exact opposite of what he did on TWL. In the end, it was nearly irrelevant for both.

It was a clear choise by both caps, I had an extra jav, and he could afford to give an wb.

For some reason, though, it was made to look like I was cheating (much like this year, shame people edit their posts) or in is own words "abusing a retard like TJ" and the trade barely passed. I thought to myself then..who is this guy that he thinks he can play 'god' and determine someone's intelect. Obviously it was a clear choise by him.

Also note how, the reasoning behind TJ's trade with me were the players itself, when the 66% criteria could of been used with Havok, but that reasoning wasn't used by then..interesting. Havok, who barely showed and who replied "Won't show much". I suspect that TJ asking him either before the trade or after (who knows!) got the exact same answer. I never saw TJ crying about it. Or despite other reasoning for it not to pass, it still did. But the elusive 66% criteria was never used to cancel it. Whatever happened, point is.. he must be a retard for sure.

Or last year:

7. Ease trades pee pee sock to Stayon for Banks - Pee Pee Sock didn't meet the 66% criteria
9. Ease trades Casket to Commodo for necromotic/the_paul/remu - In i'd say a spectacular move by Commodo by trading 3 players who didn't meet the same criteria.
10. Commodo trades liz to maketso for Afri - Commodo again showing his con artist skills by conning Maketso with Liz.
11. Ease trades Apocalypse WOW!/Solidify to Stayon for Zazerick - Ease doesn't want to follow behind and rips me off with Apocalypse WOW!

Questions that poses..are Ease and Commodo cheaters? Am I and others retards? Or did I and others have a clear idea of who we were trading for on this land of players who don't meet the 66% criteria? Who knows!

Now, League Operator, watch how Maketso and Stannis do the exact same thing, as Maketso gives away an extra jav much like Stayon last year, and Stannis, who besides an horrible draft, is now almost officially out of the race, as Maketso trades a jav and Stannis trades Failed, who is the most active twd player by far in games, drafting one of his few wbs and hindering his 2nd best league when he also has one of the worst twdt jav teams ever assembled, only to recieve Tsunami, who much like Havok doesn't really bother anymore.

I'd say its very legit of Stannis wishing to recieve a jav to try to grab jav wins much like TJ, but unfortunatly, Stannis has nowhere near the wbs TJ had. It looks like a clear choise much like TJ did last year, making it look like a even worse trade by comparisson. I wouldnt want to judge on his intellect either, due to this though.

Soon enough TJ might be afterall, TW's Kasparov. A legend of the mind. Gifted with excell sheets and lot's of database and forum scrolling.

Im kidding. By the same logic used last year then, Stannis is a super retard.

Also, League Operator, can you investigate Stannis? Tried to impose me Diakka and Rodney on a trade talk. Yes, neither said they can't show 66% of games (which apparantly is a big enough reason to step in for someone's bad capping abilities), but anyone with two inches of brain..would .?find at the very least and realized both say "last seen 10 days ago" and know it won't be easy counting on them even if they randomly come on, who knows if they stopping by or playing again. No one really counts on this type of players and trading em is common. One could say, it's "bad faith" for not having recieved a lovely warning from Stannis on that subject but it's not part of my character to say so. And in reality I expect nothing less, it's a video game and trades are like a poker game. I laught it off after doing .?find...and think to myself "Look at this youngblood, man trying to cheese me..."...and life moves on.

One year, a man gets accused of multiple things and a trade nearly doesn't work. Another year further, same man gets accused, while the guy who "stepped" in 2 times on both years, reverts an entire system to make a trade go through, in a trade very similar to the one that almost didn't pass last year, the one he, HIMSELF tried not to pass. The IRONY is off the scale here! Not as big as the gallons of loads took on the face the past few years to achieve a position on Subspace Trench Wars.

I'm sure even TJ got this one, such a partial turn of events! Right bud?

And by the way..where's my system to revert?

The trades are almost irrelevant now and im sure everyone is content regardless of what went through or not, but the entire logic of this is amusing. On this world of dual criteria used upon personal feelings, let's just add one more. Quoting an official statement and one of the justifications "All league business and trades are to be done by Dreamwin, the actual captain of Terrorist, not Stayon." So, both weren't done by Dreamwin, yet, one of the trades goes by, the other is cancelled. Makes me wonder how many colored popsicles you got to stick in your butt. Depends on the time of the month and the weather right?

Just another episode, in one of many on TW's dubious history since season 9. For the one's who have memory and know how things roll around town and did on crucial moments. Some lash out and go hard, others are just goofs and pretend they don't see a thing all this time. Take a step back and relax, it's 2016.

With this said, League Operator, please can you check if Maketso is cheating or just abusing outrageously a dumbo in Stannis?

Edit: Spinach soup, no regrets. Good Morning!

Much regards,
Papi

[idkidc1233]

Why don't you guys just let the two captains in the trade discuss it with no person who "vouches for them"?

I don't see why the veto system would be needed unless 1 cap was blatantly feeding another their best players. And even if thats the case it would be easy to spot.

Let the captains control their fate and not by other ppl who look out for themselves. And if they make an idiotic 10* trade for a 5* then that's their fault, unless if they had stacked 10*s.

Also water u waring

[olde]

Why even fight!?! stark alrdy won dis draft tourny. You guys done?!

-peace, love, and hair grease....

[Stayon]

Despite my initial reservations, I have found the veto system to work pretty well and most caps act sensibly until now. You and Claus, however, have a personal beef relating back to him intervening in the Kess for NL>Trigger+Downfall trade, after it came out that DF had activity issues. It seems (on the surface) that you've now deliberately vetoed his trade for Tsunami out of spite. The difference is, Claus had a good reason to intervene in the Kess trade, when it became clear that DF couldn't show and Skat's team would've suffered. I can't, however, see any rationale behind your veto of the Tsunami trade and you didn't provide one. That goes against the spirit of the veto system.

Personally I always thought the veto system was open to prejudices of this kind - but it kinda seemed to be working until now. Veto system or not, however, the draft league is being organised and presented really well. Unless there is serious bias or impropriety (which there wasn't: Claus was one of the few captains who vouched for the Kess trade before the DF activity concerns came out), how trades are confirmed or denied is really a footnote to the draft league, so I'm not sure this whole song & dance was really called for.

Following my post up here..

I have terrible news!!!!

1:WAR> lol too bad i probably wont be here for games

Are you a complete retard too, or am I cheating again?

I think this trade needs to be nixed ASAP. 66% criteria has to be respected. Or will it be gone with the wind? Who knows!

[MHz]

Following my post up here..

I have terrible news!!!!

1:WAR> lol too bad i probably wont be here for games

Are you a complete retard too, or am I cheating again?

I think this trade needs to be nixed ASAP. 66% criteria has to be respected. Or will it be gone with the wind? Who knows!

Lol, nice try but I already spoke with War and he said he had work for 2 sundays but then would be able to show. I generally ask people if they can show before trading for them.

And no, I don't want Claus' protection. And I'd probably be pissed if he blocked an agreed trade of mine. But I understand why he intervened in the Skatarius trade - seeing as Skatarius was whining hard and it would've ended his chances of winning anything in base or jav. Trading your no.1 pick for somebody who can't show is not the same as trading Rows for War (with all due respect to those players.)