Appeal - Spider vs. Criminal (TWDTB)

[MHz]

Pretty straight forward.

We were a man down. I requested to borrow snoopie before the round had started. Opposing captain (mvp) agreed.

No operator came and we were forced to play 7v8. Zidane acknowledged my messages during the game, and simply told me to appeal as there were no operators available to approve the borrow.

[afghan]

I am coming on to speak from our side. I respect commodo as a player and person and have no ill will towards him for appealing this as he is trying to do what is best for his team. Commodo asked me if I would allow 7v7 initially to start. I had extras on so I preferred 8v8. I don’t think I would’ve allowed 7v7 because I had people that wanted to play. I asked him if he could borrow instead and felt that was fair. He asked if he could borrow snoopie and I said ok. I didn’t pay attention as to whether or not he added snoopie. Spider readied the game so then we readied. At some point in the game he was requesting approval of the borrow. He played the rest of the game man down. I don’t know his reasoning for starting the game before confirming the borrow as it seems kind of backwards but I didn’t want to have someone spec for 7v7. Unfortunately, I would not approve a replay of this. I could have been a dick and said that he could not borrow and there would especially be no grounds for appeal. I think it would be unfair to allow an appeal as he only had 7 players to begin with and it was me allowing him to play full 8 even having an underpowered lineup at 61 stars and fighting at the bottom of the standings. This is especially even more important for my team as apparently only 4 teams make the playoffs so every win matters. I hope that the right thing is done here with not excepting the appeal.

Sincerely,
afghan

[afghan]

Edit: I just read over the rules and apparently it’s permitted for people to borrow (seemingly whether or not both captains agree). Also in the note though, it says the borrowed player has to start and not be subbed in. It appears commo gave it a shot with rojo and then wanted to sub in snoopie so that results in a forfeit. I can’t confirm this because I honestly wasn’t paying that close attention to the order of things but I’m assuming he readied the game because he thought rojo could play. Again, I’m not trying to be accusatory but just going off of the knowledge I have.

[MHz]

We requested to borrow snoopie before the start of the game because our 8th player (Rojo) had unplayable packetloss. We speculatively added Rojo seconds before the timer ran out and he lagged out immediately. Unfortunately snoopie was not approved when we requested the borrow, before the start of the game, so we couldn't add him at the juncture at which the rules state is necessary.

[ogron]

I don't have anything to comment about the appeal itself, but I want to thank Commodo for winning me my deadpool!

[MHz]

You made a graphic for it? LOL.

[zidane]

Do you have logs? Would help to know when you asked me to come approve the borrow. From my end you asked me to come (not through PM) to approve a borrow after my base game was already several minutes into the game and we added time. Logs will help with this, or logs from anyone who was in the arena.

[MHz]

No I don't. I requested to borrow snoopie, and tried to add him, before the match had started. Any bot logs will prove as such. I thought messaging on the TWDT cap chat would be sufficient... I was spamming before and after the game had commenced, and any captain on the DT chat will confirm this. I didn't know you were the only person who could approve borrows, otherwise I would've pmed you.

[SNOOPiE]

Nip told me commodo needed a borrow b4 game starter so i went over there and there was time left, so clearly commodo was asking for this b4 game started if nip got the request when he was in another arena. Prolly in a chat channel.

[zidane]

The appeal has been denied.

If Commodo needed a borrow he should not have started and ready'd the game before actually receiving and having the borrow approved. Although it appears that both teams approved the borrow (which is not actually needed), it is the captain's responsibility to ensure that he actually receives the borrow. Commodo did not PM me a single time or ever send a help call to get a borrow. Borrows must be approved with the bots BEFORE the game has started, it is the captains responsibility to ensure either myself or someone else from staff approves the borrow (other mods have the ability to accept/approve borrows). I am not going to set the precedent that the TWDT operator has to spec several minutes into his/her match to go approve a borrow in a different arena.

As I had no idea Commodo needed a borrow until at least several minutes into my game had already started (which did not start early as time was added and fully drawn down before the game began), it is clear he did not do an adequate job of letting staff know he needed a borrow. If a captain suspects that their player is going to lagout, please ensure that your borrow is approved and ready BEFORE the game actually begins, you should see the message "The player has joined X" and the player will join your frequency. I am not going to punish Criminal for actually having 8 players on their team available and ready to play. If MVP wants to grant them a replay due to playing 8v7 in a 15:00-0.00 game, that it is up to them, however MVP has already indicated he does not want a replay.

[Majorcrisis2]

The appeal has been denied.

If Commodo needed a borrow he should not have started and ready'd the game before actually receiving and having the borrow approved. Although it appears that both teams approved the borrow (which is not actually needed), it is the captain's responsibility to ensure that he actually receives the borrow. Commodo did not PM me a single time or ever send a help call to get a borrow. Borrows must be approved with the bots BEFORE the game has started, it is the captains responsibility to ensure either myself or someone else from staff approves the borrow (other mods have the ability to accept/approve borrows). I am not going to set the precedent that the TWDT operator has to spec several minutes into his/her match to go approve a borrow in a different arena.

As I had no idea Commodo needed a borrow until at least several minutes into my game had already started (which did not start early as time was added and fully drawn down before the game began), it is clear he did not do an adequate job of letting staff know he needed a borrow. If a captain suspects that their player is going to lagout, please ensure that your borrow is approved and ready BEFORE the game actually begins, you should see the message "The player has joined X" and the player will join your frequency. I am not going to punish Criminal for actually having 8 players on their team available and ready to play. If MVP wants to grant them a replay due to playing 8v7 in a 15:00-0.00 game, that it is up to them, however MVP has already indicated he does not want a replay.

In commodo's defence: he asked u multiple times on captains chat, even before the games started (i assume since mine didnt start yet). During the game he kept asking. It took me pming you to 'wake' u up i believe. Yes its commodo's fault he doesnt pm/helpcall it. The second game took u 6 mins to come to the arena as well... Kinda easy to blame it all on commodo because he lost his logs due d/c. Which he told u right away.

[zidane]

Majorcrisis2 I agree it's a shitty situation. I am not blaming Commodo, from my POV I think he thought he could add Snoopie without someone actually approving it with the bots, and then realized he couldn't once things turned into a shit show. There's no other reason why he should have started the game before the approval went through.

Borrowing players is a privilege and a captain should go out of their way to have borrows approved if needed BEFORE the game. The only difference between Game 1 and Game 2 was that I had multiple people messaging me about the issues before Game 2 started so I knew he would need borrows. The borrow system is not meant to be used to appeal games because your team hasn't shown up, it is a lifeline to save you from a bad situation, but a captain must make a proactive effort in a reasonable time frame to get the borrow. There are many things that could have been done before the games began to prevent the 8v7:

Send a help call and I would have seen it/staff would have seen it and gotten my attention or approved it themselves
PM me
Enter my arena and get my attention
Have others PM me/enter my arena to get my attention

[Rab]

The borrow system is not meant to be used to appeal games because your team hasn't shown up, it is a lifeline to save you from a bad situation

Nailed it

[MHz]

Nailed it

Rab, your team has been the beneficiary of borrowed players. Why should your team get to borrow players but not mine? My team has been disadvantaged because a function of the game that is available to everyone - and I dare say will be used by other captains in this league - was not available to me.

And actually, my team did show up. But we had a player with lag issues. So keep your simpleton opinions to yourself.

I made it incredibly clear on the captain's chat before the game that I wanted to borrow. Major Crisis saw it. Nipple saw it. Everyone saw it, apart from Zidane (apparently). Nipple sent Snoopie before the round had started, as he confirms in this thread. The idea that I didn't make this very clear is an obvious lie.

The only thing you got me on is not doing a ?help. Because I figured NewbieRecruit <ZH> wasn't going to be able to approve a borrow. I have always done this thing through the captain's chat.

[Rab]

We also forfeited because people didn't show. So w/e.
The point is your appeal is related to borrowing, and borrowing is meant to help you, not be something you appeal on the basis of. Otherwise borrowing would have to be removed, this is why we can't have nice things..