Thunder vs Terrorist TWDTB Semi-Finals Round 2 Appeal

[Zizzo]

The biggest issue for me is this wasn't dealt with on Sunday before the last game. Did Ease contact staff during or after the game? If he did, why was nothing done? If he didn't, it's pretty clear what the decision should be. This kind of situation could never happen in any sports. Once the referee has made a decision it's final and there's no going back. In this case the game could have been killed during the first minute and this whole shit storm would have been avoided.

I'm not really convinced it even is a bug. It's been a while since I've seen the message myself but I do remember it existing. If it's "can't sub in a player who has already been subbed out" like Major Crisis said it's clearly not bug but a feature It's not like the bot is malfunctioning or anything but just simply telling you're not allowed to do that. Sure, it's stupid but still the same for everyone. Even Mythril said it happened to them too during the finals. His team won but what if the substitution worked and would have made all the difference for Legio XI for some reason? Likely not but who knows, maybe those games should be replayed as well.

If this appeal is granted, Myhtril's options 2 and 3 are both bad. It's semi finals god damnit. We had three somewhat close games that could have gone either way. Depending on the position of stars and other billion things anything can happen in a single match like we all saw yesterday. So obviously the possible replay should be with the same teams and best out of three. This would mean postponing the finals by week because there simply isn't enough time to play them all during the same day. If played before the other finals at least I can't make it as a starting terrier and doing them before base would mean it's 4AM in Finland when the games are over.

What a disaster for this otherwise nice TWDT season. Ease's first words in this appeal speak for themselves.

"I hate to do this"

Yeah, this is nothing but bad sportsmanship and pathetic attempt to get another shot to get to the finals.

[Efhat]

Okay. First and foremost, let us not act like this is a new bug.
This issue has been around since I started playing SS 20 years ago. Everyone and their mom knows if you get subbed out by someone, you will not be able to get subbed in again because the bot will tell you whatever it tells you. This issue is not new.
i cannot tell you how many LB games plenty of dice players throughout the years our players have had to sit down, primarily TABARNAK, Stayon, Kess, myself, because of this bug. And plenty of other players on other squads. This has been a known issue for centuries. This is not the first time this has ever happened and everyone is completely shocked the bot did it. I am pretty sure the settings have been the same for TWDT and TWD too correct me if I am wrong.

if JAMAL said he is un sure about his status of playing, he should not have been played and proper accommodations should have been made. SHIT happens. That is why you have substitutes. If this was such an issue round two why did no one make such an urgent appeal or protest? Because JAM was here round three and they thought they had it round three.

why sub him out immediately? he was back within the minute apparently. Which I think he took a lot longer but OK, should have waited a minute at least.
Why play him in one of the most important ships in basing if he made you aware of this issue prior to the game starting? He should have spidered from the beginning to make easier accommodations then.
you had players in spec that were able and willing to shark.
a lot of preparations could have been done prior to the game starting if he made it aware his connection was unstable but were not.

if this was a oh shit where did Jamal go wtf did he permanently DC etc etc and an out of no where lag out, OK, But it was NOT. He told everyone on thunder there was a storm and he would most likely lag out. Why shark him then and scramble mid game ?

Does that mean myself and hundreds of other basers should have appealed when we could not enter a TWLB arena ten years ago after relogging because the arena was so full I could not enter it?

Does that mean myself and hundreds of other basers should have appealed when the game shark bug disconnects our player in a TWLB arena in the middle of a game and then they cannot re log into an arena because of how packed it is?

god knows how many captains could not play key players in the last 17 years of TWLB because of this bug. If no one has complained about it until now, it should not change anything.

in the history of this game, a lot of shit has happened with key players and appeals were never approved. this should not be one of them.

As much as one player impacts a team, a game should not be started from the beginning. This bug has been around since the dawn of bots. Fix the bug and move on.

how are you going to tell me the whole series was a joke lol. If this happened in our team I am more than positive no opponent team would side with the argument you are trying to validate. Aside from the fact I do not even think DW would have appealed this because he has capped plenty of basing squads and he has been aware of this issue for years.


yeah, they beat us the first round with JAM in. What happened round three? Not to mention we were down a player as well round 3 because of Maito lagging out. If the game was much closer round three with JAMAL in, I would say you know what, yeah let us replay it because JAMAL is obviously the X factor, but we won with 4 minutes with JAMAL in and their best lineup in. Terrorist had the momentum round three and we were the better team round three. Basing is about momentum and who is the better team that round. My point is we could have won round one as easily as they did if we had the momentum.

you cannot change the personal factor here, the nerves, what is on the line, the round three give or take mentality. the round that mattered the MOST, terrorist won.

leagues is all about who is the better team that day, and it was Terrorist. You can beat terrorist 50 times throughout the year. If the day comes in playoffs when we are the better team and you are beat, it is what it is. And all three games were not close. They were closed out with decent margins.

As much as I respect Ease, JAMAL, Ogron, and the rest of the Thunder crew, and as much as I love and admire competition, it would be foolish to completely start a game over because of this.

like DW said above, a lot of players on Terrorist have made it openly clear they will not play if this gets granted. Terrorist will forfeit if this gets granted. And I do not blame every single one of them. The underdogs played like fucking champions those last two games and should be credited with that victory. And I am the first one to say I did not think we had a chance but we pulled it off. Both rounds. Give my team the credit they deserve.
wed have to win 3 games now to advance on thunders 2.

it just would not be fair.

[ogron]

The whole point of a best-of-three is that the better team can lose 1 round fairly, but will win the other two. We lost a round fairly, and I feel like we had some extremely unlucky events occur. That's fine. That's the point of a best-of-three. The better team can get fluked one round.

That was Round 3.

Round 2 was a complete joke with our best shark in spec for a 6*, and Ease, our best spider, in shark... a ship he does not main.

We were 3-0 against terrorist, all stomps, before a bug prevented JAMAL from playing. Losing 1 round fairly doesn't change that.

We're 9-1 on the season, and won Round 1 handily, it's stupid that a bot error costs us a title run.

I understand Cripple's point-of-view, he didn't do anything wrong. I would be frustrated, too. It's an unfortunate situation.

[Zizzo]

Regardless of what happened in the first two rounds it all came down to the deciding final game. Even just by looking at the stats our spiders killed more than yours. Our sharks had more reps per minute than yours. Your terrier died twice as many times as ours. And most importantly you lost by more than 3 minutes so it wasn't just some flag jupe or anything like that. You can't possible call that win a fluke.

[With Ease]

A lot of stupid things being said in this thread.

1. So what if Terrorist beat us with JAMAL in shark round 3? We beat them with JAMAL in shark round 1.
2. As for your argument about the bug being around "forever," care to explain why it was fixed in both TWL AND TWBD? Clearly it wasn't the intent to implement it in every other basing league but TWDTB.
3. The argument that I shouldn't have played JAMAL if I knew there was a chance he would lag out is ridiculous. Why would I not play our best player on the freak event he lags out? The fact is he CAME BACK and couldn't play because of a bot error. It's simple.
4. As far as waiting a minute to sub JAMAL, why would I sit around and play 7v8 for an entire minute? We did the same thing round 1 when major crisis was afk at the start.
5. Using an argument about the time differential in round 3 is also stupid, since JAMAL again lost power with roughly 90 seconds or something remaining in the match (can check it through Lupin's recorded video).
6. Any argument that I'm being disingenuous as to when JAMAL returned to play can be proven through a bot log, and the scoreboard indicating what time the game ended.
7. Talking about no-shows in past lineups is COMPLETELY different than JAMAL sitting in spec waiting to play for 95% of the game.
8. Saying that you'll refuse a replay in the event it's granted doesn't even deserve a response. If the bot locked cripple out of playing the entire game dreamwin would have cried enough tears to refill the Aral Sea.
9. Jessup, just stop. This has nothing at all to do with you. If you didn't complain so much maybe I would have considered playing you.
10. I complained several times when the bot wouldn't let me sub in JAMAL, especially in thunder chat (which turban can verify). There wasn't a person online that could do a thing about it. Who is going to fix the bot and let me put in JAMAL? Materix? Please.

[ogron]

You lost 3 games against our full line, and won 1.

We beat you 15-8, 15-3, 15-8, and lost 15-12.

I don't understand how you think winning 1 real game in a BO3 makes you better. The results do not bear that out at all. Your best result was a 3 minute win where your spiders outkilled us by 20 and you had extremely good luck.

[Rasaq]

I know I have nothing to do with the match as I'm not part of either team, but I can attest for what Jamal was going through. I live about 15 minutes from him. The weather we had yesterday wasn't what we typically deal with here, it was definitely an anomaly. We had high wind gusts that knocked out power left and right throughout the night. Over 100,000 people are still without power. The same storm knocked out my power this morning at 6:30 and the electric company called and said if they weren't able to get the lights on today that it could take them until the 27th before we get power again. Luckily we have power!

Anyways, isn't the whole point of playoffs to play the best team(s) possible? The bot obviously bugged. It's no different when I tried to borrow Ra for basing the one day and couldn't because I was in. I had to remove myself just to add Ra. There's minor bugs that can be fixed. An issue with a command shouldn't have any effect on the outcome of a match, but it did. That did happen, and it happened during an important match. The effects of what happened the previous round could've easily trickled into round 3.

Is it fair to ask if Ease took the time during the match to check on why he wasn't able to get Jamal back in? No. He's busy playing a fuhin' match. Did he inquire about it after the round?? There's no playing favorites allowing these two teams to replay the round. We just want the best possible and most deserving team in the finals and we won't ever know for sure if it could've been Thunder if they're not allowed to play (with the exact same lineup) with their best players available who showed and are within the star limits. And again, this could've effected how they played round 3 through all the Jamal/bot mix-up.

[Efhat]

A lot of stupid things being said in this thread.

1. So what if Terrorist beat us with JAMAL in shark round 3? We beat them with JAMAL in shark round 1.
2. As for your argument about the bug being around "forever," care to explain why it was fixed in both TWL AND TWBD? Clearly it wasn't the intent to implement it in every other basing league but TWDTB.
3. The argument that I shouldn't have played JAMAL if I knew there was a chance he would lag out is ridiculous. Why would I not play our best player on the freak event he lags out? The fact is he CAME BACK and couldn't play because of a bot error. It's simple.
4. As far as waiting a minute to sub JAMAL, why would I sit around and play 7v8 for an entire minute? We did the same thing round 1 when major crisis was afk at the start.
5. Using an argument about the time differential in round 3 is also stupid, since JAMAL again lost power with roughly 90 seconds or something remaining in the match (can check it through Lupin's recorded video).
6. Any argument that I'm being disingenuous as to when JAMAL returned to play can be proven through a bot log, and the scoreboard indicating what time the game ended.
7. Talking about no-shows in past lineups is COMPLETELY different than JAMAL sitting in spec waiting to play for 95% of the game.
8. Saying that you'll refuse a replay in the event it's granted doesn't even deserve a response. If the bot locked cripple out of playing the entire game dreamwin would have cried enough tears to refill the Aral Sea.
9. Jessup, just stop. This has nothing at all to do with you. If you didn't complain so much maybe I would have considered playing you.
10. I complained several times when the bot wouldn't let me sub in JAMAL, especially in thunder chat (which turban can verify). There wasn't a person online that could do a thing about it. Who is going to fix the bot and let me put in JAMAL? Materix? Please.

How many seasons has this bug been around in TWDT? I've spoken to plenty of people and apparently this has been a known issue for quite some time.........and many instances have occurred prior TWDTB seasons in this same incident where players could not be subbed in and appeals were not made simply because captains knew this has always been a problem.

We've had players past seasons that were forced to play a different ship because of their lag issues due to the ships different lag restrictions. Again, preparations should have been made in the event this incident occurred. Yes, ultimately the bot did not let JAMAL back in, but like I said ^^^ , shit happens, and this was not an out of the blue error. This has been known. A best of three should not be replayed because of this. Nor should some ridiculous 4-5 minute head start or whatever else is being considered.

MC returned after Ogron died in the initial FR battle. He got off three reps before we killed him in the ear the first 15 seconds of the game.
Like I said before, there has been plenty of bugs or instances that has prevented players from playing in the past, it's unfortunate, but it has happened. Appeals to replay a whole game or series weren't granted because of it in the past, why now.

Maito was lagging out the last minute of round three too. He was a key player on our team.

Maybe I'm just oblivious because dreamwin is the captain of my team, but he has made it known and clear if this would have happened on our end a complaint wouldn't of been made because this issue has been known.

Terrorist would have to win a third game now, compared to a Thunders 2.
Or, Terrorist would have to win five games now, to a Thunders 3.
As much as this is an unfortunate incident, I just don't see why this should be replayed. We won with JAMAL in that third game, by a decent margin.

[Hulk]

Tbh, both sides have fair points. However, it's pretty sad that some of you would rather take the win than actually earn the win by playing against the opponents most optimal line up.

[MHz]

We're 3-0 against Terrorist with 10* JAMAL, our #1 pick and best player, not disappearing due to a storm and being subbed by a 6*.

He was back within a minute of Round 2 starting, and had to sit in spec the entire round because of a bot bug.

Who plays in the TWDT-B Finals shouldn't be decided by a bot error that cost us our best 10* shark to be in spec, forced our best 10* spider into shark, and replaced with a 6*.

Your head-to-head with Terrorist in main season is irrelevant to this appeal. You believe you're owed a spot in the finals because you beat them in main season which shows your extraordinary arrogance.

Terrorist beat you in a Best of Three in the playoffs. They're the only games that matter.

It's always been the case that you can't sub in a subbed out player in TWDT. Your ignorance of the rules - and your strategic error in subbing out your best baser - should not be rewarded.

For these horrible arguments alone this appeal should be thrown in the trash.

Did I mention you're a hideous incel?

[ogron]

1. Great to see Commodo, 0x TWDT-B Finalist in 12 tries, who stacked base this season and went 0-10, weigh in. Your weird incel jokes make me giggle. I talk about how you're bad at a 2D Spaceship game, and you get so angry and have such weak supporting arguments that you have to resort to baseless ad hominem attacks.

I don't believe we're owed a spot in the Finals. I believe we're owed a fair chance at replaying Round 2. That's it. If Terrorist is better, they'll advance. We both won a round with our available players. JAMAL was available less than 1 minute into the start of Round 2, and the bot wouldn't let us play him, and cost us our best spider and best shark.

The only thing I want is to play three full rounds with every player who was available at the time and eligible to play and within lag limits. We were denied that due to a matchbot error.



2. I ran TWDT for 5 seasons, and capped 4 times, and I was not aware of this bug. I don't recall any captain ever bringing it up.

99% of the time, you're subbing someone out because they're lagging or playing badly, why would you sub them back in? It's just not something I remember ever coming up.

When made aware of any bugs, I have attempted to have the code changed. Dreamwin was abusing shipchanges in TWDT and bypassing the deathtimer using shipchanges, and I had Qan or someone fix it when I was TWDT Op. I would not have allowed that bug to remain if I had been aware.

Cripple's assertion (sources?) that many people are aware of this bug is news to me. It was never brought to my attention while running the league.

[RoDNeY]

idk, tough decision and super unfortunate circumstances but isnt this the point of having lineup depth? :/

[Jessup]

A lot of stupid things being said in this thread.


9. Jessup, just stop. This has nothing at all to do with you. If you didn't complain so much maybe I would have considered playing you.

rofl . I didn't complain to you one time this season or on the team chat. Show me my complaints I was giving to you or disruptions I did that took place on the team. Please do not create falsehoods and lie about me and my conduct. That is completely untrue what you just said above.. spare me with that nonsense. I challenge any thunder member to give ANY examples were I was complaining on squad chat or in freq chat during games or any time the whole season where I caused disruptions. It just did not happen and you saying this was a reason you didn't play me all season even though I showed for every game in regular season is an outright lie.

What did take place on chat though multiple times was ogron harassing me calling me a brain dead noob who was never going to get one second of playtime.. and multiple other insults... which you never stepped in to stop. You had a chance to use me in spider in this sub situation but refused. Why should I have pity for a cap who allowed ogron to cause me personal duress on team chat without stepping in and basically ruin my entire season and also the entire season for the squad. There were many very poor choices made by Thunder this season regarding lines used and ogron was a large part of this issue as we all know he had your ear big time.

This appeal has as much to do with me as any of you in this game and I made VERY valid points explaining why I do not see any argument to have a replay done and that this appeal should obviously be denied. This was NOT a malfunction or a bot glitch. This is how the bots have ALWAYS been set and programmed for this league. If you want to change this for next season fine..do so

but ??...

DO NOT FEEL ENTITLED TO STEP OUTSIDE OF BOT SETTINGS THAT ALL TEAMS ARE BOUND BY DURING EVERY TWDT SEASON EVER PLAYED AND ACT LIKE YOU ARE ENTITLED TO SPECIAL TREATMENT IN GETTING AN APPEAL.

[ogron]

I don't think that asking to replay a round where a matchbot bug (that doesn't exist in the only other main league in TWL) cost us our best Shark and best Spider is unreasonable.

[7roll]

Very nice sportsmanship and teamwork, Jessup. Everyone on here is making valid points and suggestions on how this can/may be solved. You? Worried about yourself and your play time.

And you wonder why you weren't played.

IMO Game 2 should be replayed. If Dreamwin and his team don't want to play that's their problem and choice. Circumstances like this rarely happen, but it did and it changed the outcome of Game 2.