TWDT Star Caps: Discussion

[Poseidon]

.5 option feels nice!

qan or someone - would it be simple enough to have TWO ratings per baser? one is the Primary Rating or their highest rated ship; the second a ship of their choice, only per request. Primary rating = rating of all ships aside from the secondary choice.

[Turban]

in my opinion we should either introduce half ratings to player ratings to properly differentiate players from one another, or alternatively switch back to old rating system where players were rated on their experience and skill level while also limiting number of players that can be in that slot. it was something like this:

10-star would be top 3 (or top 5) in a league.
9-star would be top 10 in a league.
8-star would be potentially impactful TWL/TWDT starter.
7-star would be someone who consistently starts in TWL, but you can't expect big number games more often than maybe 5% of the time.
6-star would be TWD player with very limited experience in top competition or players from other zones with no prior experience.
5-star would be absolute noobs from trench wars.

however, the first option seems better. i feel it would be much better if we could rate players to be 6.5, 7.5, 8.5, or 9.5. team star cap would be rounded up (39.5 would be 40).

[qan]

One reason that star values are flawed is purely mathematical. The relations between star values are not accurately quantified. This becomes increasingly obvious as you assign lower star values, and is why using values <6 results in imbalance, especially when using an overall star limit.

We need a better way to model what a star actually means.

The difference between a 5 and 6 star should be such that (with accurate ratings):
- If you decided to play a 5 star instead of your 6 star and a 10 star instead of your 9 star (trading out one star on either side), the overall skill level of the team should remain relatively unchanged.

This means star should be mapped to another quantified skill level which is defined by a function. I'm messing with a graphing calculator right now, can't quite find a great function to mirror the desired behavior off the top of my head, but it's worth messing around with if anyone has some free time and remembers some of their high school mafs.

[Poseidon]

oki well if uve tried it and it didnt work for some reason then nm. feels like more gradient the better. for instance, if last szn was re-rated on 5-10*, zidane is prob not as likely to get 6 understarred spiders, or at least the effect wouldnt be felt as strongly.

regardless, i do hope ppl seriously consider the other proposal which would allow people a 2nd ship rating... it would add a nice bit of depth to drafting and the league itself; a lot of players would be grateful for it, and captains as well as it could greatly increase the flexibility they have with their lineup during the season

[ogron]

The whole point of 6*-10* is that players are actually 1*-10*, but you can improve dramatically over a short period of time from say a 4* to a 6*, or you're a relatively unknown player from another zone and misrated and you're actually good.

Putting everyone in that 6* basket mitigates the damage. Kassius was misrated in base and the best 6* in TWDT-B, but it was manageable in terms of playing Terrorist.

If we had a 1*-*10 system and he got rated 3*, he would be so unbelievably broken it would be disastrous.

Setting the lowest level to 6* is smart and there for a reason. Every season there's a few players who are one star off and people complain, but it's super manageable. Teams win TWL games with multiple fewer stars on their team. There's always going to be good teams with economical star values, but the point is that it's still winnable even if they're favored. It's always playable. A big part of that is not giving out 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 stars. They cut out 5* based on experience. It used to be 5* to 10*, and based on years of play there was discussion and agreement on removing the 5* and setting the mark to 6*. There was some inflation, but I think the overall effect was positive.

[Poseidon]

if theres going to be star cap my 2 cents:

- Basing goes to 5-10*
- Re-think star cap based on 5-10 system
- Allow basers 1-extra ship rating if they request

[Rab]

In that case, see this post: https://forums.trenchwars.com/forum/...ap#post1331030
This was my attempt to create a formula to calculate a star cap.
The general idea is:
- if players were distributed between teams evenly based on rating
- then each team decided to field it's top 5/8 players, that produces a star number (which represents no limit if an ideal draft occurs)
- optional: then reduce that number by some amount to allow some players to play at the expense of other players
I think a formula is better than guessing.
The formula requires you to have a complete list of signups with ratings first.
I think you should work on improving the formula so it can be re-used for future seasons with different signups/ratings.

[beam]

Based on the responses in this thread and feedback I've received in game, I am strongly leaning towards having some kind of star cap unless somebody can present a strong case for no cap. It may be more productive to discuss what you guys think the caps should be instead of whether we should have one

[Zeebu]

The summer league thing was the most exclusive piece of hot garbage that ever existed. Anything the goes away from that would be preferable

[viop11]

xcuse me? am 10* shirk and cud fk ne othir 7* wirbirt/jiflin 0 effirt

[Poseidon]

nowon makes good point but if you look at the cap list as it currently is, all the players are 10* in either 1 or 2 leagues, aside from viop. if there was ever a group of captains to go with no-star cap, this seems to be the one

[Pressure]

The star cap the way it is allows captains who are on different skill levels to have a more equal chance at winning (in theory - in reality the better players seem to be able to evaluate value better so far). I'm pretty against nostar cap as I think it's pretty obvious this gives pro caps unfair advantage as well as it will be pretty easy to stack a league when you only need 5 good players.Some cap needs to be there to have an equal playing field which is what DT is supposed to be for. I would focus on conversation about which star cap you want rather than having a no cap.

Good point. This is the best argument I've seen in favor of star caps.

[Turban]

star cap should depend on the quality of players that signed up relative to the numbers of teams we have.

as an example last season 40-stars in TWDT-J did not work and essentially all teams had to bench several top-tier players while being forced to play with low-stars who, at times, can be impossible to carry. in hindsight we would've had a much better season with 41-star limit given how many good players signed up.

both of the dueling leagues are notoriously difficult to win as 10-stars -- almost twice as difficult than it is to win in basing as a high-star, at least in my honest opinion. this is because 10-stars in in dueling leagues take up 25% of your star cap where as being 10-star in basing takes ~13% of your star cap.

one thing worth considering is maybe lowering value of terriers (50% of current ratings) as they aren't as impactful and adjusting overall basing limit according to it.

[Spezza]

The star cap the way it is allows captains who are on different skill levels to have a more equal chance at winning (in theory - in reality the better players seem to be able to evaluate value better so far). I'm pretty against nostar cap as I think it's pretty obvious this gives pro caps unfair advantage as well as it will be pretty easy to stack a league when you only need 5 good players.Some cap needs to be there to have an equal playing field which is what DT is supposed to be for. I would focus on conversation about which star cap you want rather than having a no cap.

[Poseidon]

Also, if there were to not be a star cap, why not have three separate leagues? caps having 3 teams sounds mayb a lil absurd but wouldnt it ultimately give all the players of any given league the best league experience? So 3 drafts.... Captains could compose each team individually and select for the best composition for any one league instead of the best 3-league value picks and such. *shrug* i tink itd be worth the extra effort