Inflated base ratings.

[Rab]

Adding 1* compensation is just another way of taking the #1 shark's rating into account. May as well just take it into account the normal way to avoid dev work.

It's also starting to sound like a slot system with each slot having a max reimbursement based on 10*-R*, something like:
Terr: 0 reimbursement
Shark 1: max 1 reimbursement
Shark 2: max 3 reimbursement
Spid 1: 0 reimbursement
Spid 2: max 1 reimbursement
Spid 3: max 2 reimbursement
Spid 4: max 2 reimbursement
Spid 5: max 3 reimbursement

but that's just weird, I can't even calculate it easily in my head.


[QUOTE=Zeebu;n1360470]also, unless its already been brought up and i havent seen it, all basers with terrier driven ratings should be re-evaluated to only use the higher of their spid or shark value. [/QUOTE]
good point, ship-specific ratings would be better to avoid losing the terr rating

there is an issue the other way round too... e.g. if ogron isn't present so you put tpz in terr instead, should you be reimbursed?

[Zeebu]

[QUOTE=Rab;n1360471]Adding 1* compensation is just another way of taking the #1 shark's rating into account. May as well just take it into account the normal way to avoid dev work.

It's also starting to sound like a slot system with each slot having a max reimbursement based on 10*-R*, something like:
Terr: 0 reimbursement
Shark 1: max 1 reimbursement
Shark 2: max 3 reimbursement
Spid 1: 0 reimbursement
Spid 2: max 1 reimbursement
Spid 3: max 2 reimbursement
Spid 4: max 2 reimbursement
Spid 5: max 3 reimbursement

but that's just weird, I can't even calculate it easily in my head.



good point, ship-specific ratings would be better to avoid losing the terr rating

there is an issue the other way round too... e.g. if ogron isn't present so you put tpz in terr instead, should you be reimbursed? [/QUOTE]

yeah, i'm not sure how that plays out differently than just using ratings as a whole. derp.

its all just star cap with extra steps



another point towards ship specific ratings in basing, though

[MousE]

[QUOTE=Dwopple;n1360464]Mouse has been on the "I'm elitist and only care about myself and non-shitters" train for years and on the "I hate Dwopple" train for even longer. He's an island boy. Nothing new to see here.

I didn't "design" this league for you, Mouse. Get over yourself. The low-stars you despise and wish would stay in pub or at least not play matches when you do (even TWD) aren't as vocal as you are on here. The fact is, though, they bring a ton of value to this community and leagues like TWDT are geared to inclusivity. Was it perfect this season? Nope, and I've never claimed this. In fact, I've acknowledged it all season and others have realized there were a ton of "lose-lose" situations and have moved on to what's next (hype).

I was extremely stoked to see monkee come back to TW and get a lot of playtime, as well as seeing uprise have a starting base spot. I was happy to play Lee, Groan (who shined last TWDT as a lower star) and watch them win a medal.

These guys (among others) showed up every weekend ready to play, just like you Mouse. Your entire logic right now is to project your personal feelings and experience because you hated your team, we get it. Which goes back to my original point about the limitation of volunteers to cap...

The star cap didn't ruin your 4 weeks. Was it to the quality you wanted it to be? No, but you act like this 50% of the time even in TWBD. Others who felt the way you did (excluding the other island boys) have not gone to the extent you have to rage at me. On stream I literally defended the current star cap to favor giving the low stars some playtime. Which goes back to the top of this post about you 1) being a self-centered elitist, and 2) having a 15-year hatred hard-on for me... Nothing to see here.

I do love how much I've personally affected you these past 4 weeks, though 🤡

Edit: sorry to distract from the productive conversation here. I'm a fan of the changes being proposed ❤️[/QUOTE]

I guess you retards have not understood a fucking word I have said... WHY are u designing leagues around people who show up once a week and then log off? What I have been saying the entire time is have a lower * game for the people 7* and under (SO THEY PLAY PEOPLE OF THEIR OWN SKILL LEVEL) and have the DT for 7.5 or above so the people playing actually have to have some knowledge/exp to play in the DT... Banzi/Groan and shit would still have played... Lee is probably a 7.5 as well and would also play. The only people who wouldn't play are the people who actually don't give a fuck so they can play in their own game.

How is this elitist you fucking moron? I am trying to make the game more balanced and a better experience for everyone, but you don't seem to understand or do you just have a very poor reading comprehension? You literally reply like Don JR and keep repeating the same points without actually understanding what I am trying to say.

How about you look at all the regulars who play this game on a more daily basis that had to sit in the tournament because of the decisions you made?

Holy shit every day you get more and more dumb. I dont care if you are a volunteer, your volunteering does way more harm then good

Like I said I wouldn't hate you if you admitted your mistakes and try to correct them. Double Downy

[Vehicle]

I personally think terr has a ton of impact on games and getting rid of their rating makes no sense. That being said, if you're going to do it, you should dump sharks too and just do spider-only star counts.

[Dwopple]

[QUOTE=MousE;n1360473]

I guess you retards have not understood a fucking word I have said... WHY are u designing leagues around people who show up once a week and then log off? What I have been saying the entire time is have a lower * game for the people 7* and under (SO THEY PLAY PEOPLE OF THEIR OWN SKILL LEVEL) and have the DT for 7.5 or above so the people playing actually have to have some knowledge/exp to play in the DT... Banzi/Groan and shit would still have played... Lee is probably a 7.5 as well and would also play. The only people who wouldn't play are the people who actually don't give a fuck so they can play in their own game.

How is this elitist you fucking moron? I am trying to make the game more balanced and a better experience for everyone, but you don't seem to understand or do you just have a very poor reading comprehension? You literally reply like Don JR and keep repeating the same points without actually understanding what I am trying to say.

How about you look at all the regulars who play this game on a more daily basis that had to sit in the tournament because of the decisions you made?

Holy shit every day you get more and more dumb. I dont care if you are a volunteer, your volunteering does way more harm then good

Like I said I wouldn't hate you if you admitted your mistakes and try to correct them. Double Downy [/QUOTE]

You mean the part where I acknowledged (along with everyone at this point) 8 teams would have been sick, but ultimately the captains decided not to (your boy zid was against redoing everything, not that I blame him, just merely pointing out you're an idiot). Raising the star cap would have been a bandaid to a larger lose-lose issue, but again you're too stuck on your "I hate Dwopple" vendetta. I've already explained why I opted to respect the majority of captains instead of making an executive decision to redo everything. In hindsight, that was also probably for the best considering zid dropped out of Oping the upcoming TWL because he "didn't wanna deal with me" in my non-decision making assistant op position (bots and stream stuff) after I told him we weren't changing settings or rules for spawn mines right before playoffs, which would bring me back to the already-horse beaten point about a lack of volunteer caps for this past season... Yikes.

What was that you were saying again about conditionally withdrawing your captaincy this upcoming season, though? Please tell us more...

[Rab]

cud u2 get a room

[Riverside]

In this pew pew 2d spaceship game,

There are players below 7 or 7.5*, currently participating in TWDs & leagues, as well as players who haven't logged on in a minute.

There are players who have gotten better, stayed at a similar level of play in the ships they vs, or gotten worse (heh): whether from 6-10*, at their first, second or/and third leagues.

There are players who only participate in TWDT and TWL. There are players who are added in their first, second and/or third league: every week they show, or some of the weeks they show. There are players who currently and historically dont get any Playtime (whether TWL or TWDT): some actively TWDing, some not.

There are players who use TWD as a practice for their league play, in their first, second or/and third leagues. There are players who sometimes TWD. There are players who don't or rarely TWD, presently during whatever League Season(s) or/and at all.

There are players who TWD to pew pew: individually or with friends in TWD.

There are players who enjoy TWD and/or TWDT but can't play because of the existing times of games (structured and organic), or/and live within a non North American time zone.

There are players who could have one, or many of, these intersecting patterns of spaceship pew pew abilities and reasons / incentives to game.

Some of my observational feedback:

I hope, wish or ask that meaningful feedback the Volunteer OP Teams are seeking (ie what type of league structure is wanted), comes from multiple segments of players, is targeted, and consequently has multiple, practical, easy-to-find/see access points to feedback. Id appreciate if feedback wasn't limited to general public online forum space that can often be (un)inviting selectively (based on the names behind the post & type of feedback posted).

Id appreciate another avenue along with a "contact/pm these people" which is helpful in its own & many ways.

[Dwopple]

Rab's right meet me in the discord chat, Pineapple #1 (mouse, the island boy) if you wanna continue this as I will gladly oblige you. We're derailing the productive stuff

[saiyan]

How about wait for mmr, grind out tryhard matches in your ship for a couple months, then look at the very highest rated spid, terr, and shark numbers. You now have relative values that are actually backed by data and can implement relative * caps on these ships accordingly. The end.

[Hulk]

Why would we make terr cost 0 again? lol..

[WillBy]

[QUOTE=Hulk;n1360484]Why would we make terr cost 0 again? lol..[/QUOTE]

I can't imagine a scenario where teams are free to add anyone in terrier without any sort of cost, be in star cap or slot. Definitely not this season.

There is room for adjustment to base rules and star caps. But it has to be reasonable from an Op standpoint, from a dev standpoint, and from a captain standpoint. Inflated base ratings look like a challenge the community wants addressed, but I don't see how zeroing out any ratings will help (not to mention the complications that creates for Ops, Dev and Captains)

[LeeRomeno]

One of the best ideas ive heard was rating all low-vp players at 7. Every single league there is a case where someone gets criminally underrated (especially in low vp areas), which results in that person having guaranteed spot in lineup, as otherwise it would not work. This should not be the case. Let the low-stars fight among each other for that spot in all 3 leagues. Willby is good example of that. For some reason he was rated only 6 and played pretty much every single match he showed to. Last league it were guys like stek and molle.
2 leagues ago i was rated 6 in wb and ended up in finals, playing every game, i was upgraded to 7 and havent had a single game ever since. If all low vps would be at 7, this would be far more fair i think.
Margin of error is always larger among newbies or low-stars as well, some aliaser may end up there etc. If you have higher ranking, it is less likely you get overrated or underrated.

[Tiny]

What does putting the data we have from the prior seasons into the mmr rating system give us instead of playing more games to get the mmr rating? I don’t know, just thinking.

[Riverside]

[QUOTE=Tiny;n1360491]What does putting the data we have from the prior seasons into the mmr rating system give us instead of playing more games to get the mmr rating? I don’t know, just thinking.[/QUOTE]

I like that too.

However, it's additional coding for a Volunteer Development & Coding team that, by my assumption and observation, is already doing a shit ton of proactive and reactive work, in a few places: in-game features, servers, cybersecurity, website, etc.

As qan relayed: coding to take on a past set of data is different than coding for present-time data.

qan shared:

[QUOTE=qan;n1360150]That'd be pretty cool, but no, it would be difficult to make use of that older data unless it was done to make a sort of simulated MMR with your past self vs all other players, adjusting each person's simulated MMR over time. Interesting idea, actually, considering the huge amount of match data we have available. It would even allow simulated MMR to be tracked over time, so you could see who was the very best [I]in every single age [/I](at least from TWD data) ... But as fascinating as that might be, it's a different project altogether.

It'll just work as most MMR systems do: getting closer to estimating your current actual skill level as you play more and more games. Nothing fancy, just: did you win, or did you lose? It's an algorithm that takes the human guesswork out, which is often the step (at least without rigorous testing and reiterating) that mucks up just about any kind of ratings system.

And what !signup does is just allow me some test data to use to make sure things are working properly. It'll also make it easier to start testing. Everything will be wiped before the real go-live, so no worries.[/QUOTE]

[URL="https://forums.trenchwars.com/tsl/1359215-mmr-for-tsl-and-eventually-other-parts-of-the-zone-planning-thread-nerds-welcome#post1360273"]https://forums.trenchwars.com/tsl/13...me#post1360273[/URL]


My personal opinion is that ratings are best when data & human insight are combined.

An mmr system that was created by humans, that only relies on data input, could be more effective if theres insight in addition to it (ie: a committee of players rating, from different segments).

My assumption is that folks will disagree and believe in an mmr only system that removes human insight from the front-end (but not the back-end, ie the coders).

I think thats okay in this situation, and will remain grateful, and provide feedback when I want, for the existing and future voluntary rating systems we have for Leagues like TWDT.

[mean gene]

good idea let me 8* spid again :D