Look to the Past or Future (election, terrorism etc)

[Mattey]

Mattey, I don't know if those numbers are right at all. But from reading the nytimes repeatedly for like 5 months after the start of the war, from the stuff reported, this is what it looked like to me.

Something like 2,000 civilians killed by Saddam's thugs (fedayemen) many times on purpose or used as sheilds.
1,000 killed by US during military war (precision airstrikes and tank/gun deaths).
1,500 killed by terrorist bombs after military war.
maybe something like 500 civilians killed by US/allied soldiers (mostly at night and mostly police officers mistaken as terrorist or guerillas)

so yeah maybe those numbers are close to accurate if continued until now, almost definitely overestimated because of the bias that these surveys were conducted under in order to push forward a political agenda. So I could see 8,000 civilians killed instead of 10,000, while US/allies killed, mistakenly, probably like 1,500 killed after war during guerilla insurrection and 1,000 during military war. That is a lot, but leaves 5,500 killed by terrorist bombs and by saddam's thugs. Of course this is a very vague estimate, and sorry if I seem insensitive I'm just synical, but it looks for everyone killed by accident by us there are two killed by terrorists or guerillas. A good deal of these terrorists bombs took out 100-200 civilians, maybe like 5 bombings, while many more had like 40 casualties, and many many more had like 10 casualties. Most of this information comes from reading the times daily, it is always possible they are wrong or if I remember incorrectly, but that newspaper is one of the most respected newspapers in the world and if they are very inaccurate that puts a dismal light on all news media.

This quote pretty much somes up your position "but it looks for everyone killed by accident by us there are two killed by terrorists or guerillas." Of course this is how it looks to you, for every 1 reported incident of the United States killing civilians, probably upwards of 20 incidents take place. These are the most accurate numbers of civilian casualties you're going to get. You know why? Because the military STOPPED keeping track of civilian deaths. Why would they do that?

[lunch3]

I'm joining for patriotic reasons mostly and also because I believe any war we go into would be for a good humane reason. I don't want to give any details but I will very unlikely need to use a gun, and if I had to I have no problems killing an enemy if it means protection of myself or comrades, finishing a mission, or if it will bring my side one small step closer to winning a war.

Mattey, you might be right I didn't hear about MANY casualties, but at worst for every incident I heard of there are 3-4 casualties I haven't. Plus this is not information from the military but from a free press who usually get the numbers from a hospital. It still seems to me that terrorists and guerillas killed more Iraqis than the coalition forces did.

[Sarien]

As for being trained to kill people in the army, there are many positions you can take where in all your service may have no need to even fire a gun! beyond basic training. The army, navy and airforce is the best institution to teach you leadership and self development while having the satisfaction that you are protecting your country and its interest. I think basic training is something everyone should do. But you may not feel that patriotic as me therefore probably take alot of things for granted in your nation. If you feel that your country has treated you well then there is no other reason why you shouldnt join the service and especially not deter people who will eventually protect your ass!

That misconception gets people killed, you moron.
Tell the 'non-combat roles' bullshit to the dead members of the 507th maintenence company, for one. Talk to vets, especially Vietnam vets to know just exactly how used you can get. The first duty in any branch of service is to obey orders, and if you get ordered to kill or go fight, that's how it is. You don't get to say "but no, sir, I'm supposed to be using a computer." You go ahead and keep on using lines like "But you may not feel that patriotic as me therefore probably take a lot of things for granted in your nation." You are young, and dumb, no two ways about it. If a person says to someone "you shouldn't enter the military unless you're ready to kill people" it doesn't make them unpatriotic... it makes them ... realists, and I resent you implying otherwise, asshole jerk.

[lunch3]

Well joining the industry or private sector does help the country in a good essential way, we all can't be soldiers. But I do hear a good deal from colleagues that I might die, some of which push it to a degree because, IMO, they want to get rid of their guilt for being selfish, but not many. I could strive in the private sector with my engineering degree but rather serve the country.

I'm glad their are patriotic people like The Enforcer, otherwise our civilization would never ever reach stability. If everyone was not happy with their government no matter what no civilization has a chance to exist and thrive.

[THE ENFORCER]

That misconception gets people killed, you moron.
Tell the 'non-combat roles' bullshit to the dead members of the 507th maintenence company, for one. Talk to vets, especially Vietnam vets to know just exactly how used you can get. The first duty in any branch of service is to obey orders, and if you get ordered to kill or go fight, that's how it is. You don't get to say "but no, sir, I'm supposed to be using a computer." You go ahead and keep on using lines like "But you may not feel that patriotic as me therefore probably take a lot of things for granted in your nation." You are young, and dumb, no two ways about it. If a person says to someone "you shouldn't enter the military unless you're ready to kill people" it doesn't make them unpatriotic... it makes them ... realists, and I resent you implying otherwise, asshole jerk.

I find it a shame that in the past pretty much all civilians would give their life for their country now everyone has a problem. I say if you live in a fine country and appreciate it then you should help out your country in a time of need whatever that would be. If you are afraid of dying then join the reserves and do clerical work, you then will be doing a crucial role in the army if you get called up that means they really need you and you should do it for your country and the benefits you recieved from it. Imagine what would happen in ww2 if everyone didnt join the army because they have all these issues, imagine if all the people became hippies and protested and avioded conscription cause i know what would happen the minority of soldiers that volunteered to serve the country would be dead and you will be living under a japanese regime.

So before you critize people for joining the service remember that they are doing it for you.

[Mattey]

I'm glad their are patriotic people like The Enforcer, otherwise our civilization would never ever reach stability. If everyone was not happy with their government no matter what no civilization has a chance to exist and thrive.

This speaks for itself.

[lunch3]

I don't understand all you beef against The Enforcer, seriously, those who are getting emotional about these discussions, without good reason, has a problem.

He may be stubborn, but just as stubborn as the most of you...and me. Some think that anyone that supports Bush is a lunatic, which gives insight to who actually is the lunatic for thinking in that brainwashed mentality. He presented sensible, rational arguements, some of which I disagree with but mostly agree. He may be biased, but we are all biased trying to sell our perspective.

PS Mattey, maybe I exaggerated in that quote. It was also taking out of context and wanted to give Enforcer backing which I did rationally and well put above. But it is true on the logical sense that once you have no more patriotic people a nation dies in spirit and is doomed to whither in time. Rome died that way as with many other civilizations, when they lost pride in their identity. 9/11 woke us up and gave us a purpose whether good or bad for the world I do not know for sure. But I'm hoping and thinking good.

[abrasion]

[Mantra-Slider]

the situation in iraq is under control. democracy with elections will start tomorrow..

[THE ENFORCER]

the situation in iraq is under control. democracy with elections will start tomorrow..

Mantra what happened to post #28?

http://www.electionworld.org/election/iraq.htm

[Mantra-Slider]

lol it was super sarcasm enforcer. I was refering to the new incidents in Iraq where US troops are losing ground in the country and where a civil war might start any second.

I wont give you any definition of democracy as I promised in post 28 but please lol the situation in iraq is so full of bs and why cant you just understand that forced democracy wont work?

[THE ENFORCER]

I thought u were being sarcastic thats why i provided you that link.
Because democracy is what all citizens want!

[Amok]

Democracy is what all citizens want? How the hell can you assume that about Iraqi people? That's just fucking retarded.

[THE ENFORCER]

Democracy is what all citizens want? How the hell can you assume that about Iraqi people? That's just fucking retarded.

First of all its already been proven with the iraqi people with the poll they took, secondly what citizen wouldnt want a style of government where they could influence policy and have power?

[Troll King]

Did you skip over the part where he was talking about sarcasm? This one wasn't as subtle as Mantra's, but it's fairly clear.