Look to the Past or Future (election, terrorism etc)

[Mattey]

Actually, Israel was the israelites country back in Roman times. They Israelis didnt want to be ruled by anyone, and wanted to be their own people not dominated by others. The rebelled, and the romans sent a couple legions (the number escapes me) to quell it. The romans crushed the rebellion, and sent the israelis scurrying across the then "conquered" world, afraid of being eradicated by the Romans. So technially, it WAS the Israelis untill tehy were thrown out, and then the Palestinians moved in, and lived there till after WW2 when the Israelis wanted their homeland back

So if Native Americans ask nicely all the Europeans will go back home right? Forcing Israelis on the Palestinians was a terrible compromise to satiate Jewish people after WW2.

[bloodzombie]

really Im not anti american or anything, but I think its a shame that you guys rather go abroad fighting another country (no, RAPE another country) than dealing with the problems you have in your OWN country. Sure I have never been in USA, so I might be wrong... But from what I hear on tv/movies/documentary and read in books (from both left wingers right wingers and liberals) you guys have a fucked up economy,you got guns everywhere that anyone can get and there are murderers everywhere and people being afraid to even go out (and this being in "the home of the brave").According to UN about 1/9 of the population live under the official poverty line and with that I dont mean people who have to live on welfare.. no I mean people with just as bad conditions that you have around the world in other countries that has "been deomcratic" within a year after "liberation".

I'm gonna be a little off topic here because i'm not talking about politics or war or anything, but I just want to say something about this.

the US has problems, no doubt. But it's really a fantastic place to live. in 99% of the country you can go out whenever you want, but like anywhere, there's bad neighborhoods. Yes, a lot of people have guns, but most of those people are legal owners who keep their guns in their house for protection of their families (I think it's stupid to have a gun around, but I'm just saying, it's not something you see, and not something to fear). I've been to a lot of places in the US and europe, I'm not one of these blind followers that screams "god bless the USA" and has an american flag in the back of my pickup truck, and i'm not proud of what our government has been up to, but as far as a place to live, I love it here.

There's poverty, and maybe I'm naive on this, since I'm from an upper middle class family (I think most people from this game are), but it seems to me that nobody needs to live in poverty here. There's welfare for people who truly need it (and for some who don't). There's a lot of homeless people, but I think 99% of them choose to be homeless. they'll hold up signs "will work for food" but then if you offer them a job, they'll say "nah, forget it". they just want handouts, and a lot of them make good money begging.

I don't really care if anyone bashes the US, in fact, I know you aren't mant, which is why I'm typing this, I just think you've gotten a very slanted view of the US from the media. If you put any country under a microscope and focus on the negative, you can make it look like a fucked up place (except maybe switzerland... stupid perfect swiss).

[Force of Nature]

That was hardly a point by point rebuttal

It wasnt a point by point rebuttal. I already told you I lost that data. That was only a taste of what was in my copy buffer.

[TelC@t]

Everyone always pays attention to the biggest nut in the room.

Who says quantity doesn't matter?

[bloodzombie]

Who says quantity doesn't matter?

nobody?

[TelC@t]

I was just stating my opinon and im the only one it seems on this forum that values and states repsect for other people's opinon

lol, I find that interesting

[TelC@t]

nobody?

Why question mark? Be self confident - look at THE ENFORCER, even though all the people who replied to this thread disagreed with him, he still goes on as if he is the chosen one. I mean sometimes you do look more experienced in certain field when you just sound self-assured, even though what you say is completely wrong, kz *oink* *oink*

[Force of Nature]

That was hardly a point by point rebuttal but i do conceed that it is hard for defining reasoning for invasion for future purposes, thats i guess was the whole reasoning for the WMD (if had WMD pose immediate threat) i mean if Bush could place the argument we could invade Iraq simply because of the atrocities i think he would and i would find that more plausable too however UN wouldnt buy that and they havent! But if we look at it by itself and not as a definition for future invasions is pretty clear for a humanity sake to invade Iraq politically i agree its hard! Im sure if we did a thorough look into Iraq and saw all the facts we probably could find a criteria/reason for invading a country i mean if USA interevened in Germany before 1938 because it just knew they would pose a threat to world peace in the future like they did to Iraq think of how different the world would be. Fact is politics is very grey just some things you cant over analyse if politicians didnt hesistate like they did in Iraq for Germany then the world would be in a better shape. Some things are done just because they are the right thing to do even though its hard to fit a criteria to it for future references.

Note: thats why i dont care about the WMD because it was simply a means to an end to grab support i dont believe for a second that Bush went into Iraq to grab these weapons from Sadam.Yes it would of been better if there was a more definitive reason for invasion but im glad sadam isnt in control and i think thats the main point as long as this doesnt go out of control enabling USA to inavde other countries without proper reasoning which i dont think will happen!

This might be hard to understand maybe ill tweek it up tomorrow when i get a fresh night sleep but if you get it just tell me so i dont have to rewrite it please.

You also failed to see my second reasoning why i want Australian troops in Iraq 1. yes is because i want a strong ally with USA (we have talked about that no need to argue agian) 2. is however because i dont want the terrorist world to see what they are doing is having an impact and seem like they are winning!

Goodnight make some fresh points for me tomorrow to "munch" upon

I'll let you address what the other people have pointed out and then argue against anything they missed. I understand what you are saying but doesn't mean I agree with you.

[bloodzombie]

I just figured it out, I'm so fucking stupid. I'm sitting here thinking "god damn this enforcer guy sounds just like telcat"... he IS telcat, isn't he?

they have the same "look at me, I'm so smart about everything even though I never make a valid point" tone about them, and now she jumps in and it all becomes clear.

[Force of Nature]

I just figured it out, I'm so fucking stupid. I'm sitting here thinking "god damn this enforcer guy sounds just like telcat"... he IS telcat, isn't he?

they have the same "look at me, I'm so smart about everything even though I never make a valid point" tone about them, and now she jumps in and it all becomes clear.

OMG you are soo right

[Richard Creager]

You guys are never going to change the enforcer's view, and the enforcer is never going to change your views. People are set in their beliefs and a spaceshipgame forum is the last place someone is going to change their mind. This thread and many like it are a waste of bandwidth, space, and time. Lock it.

[lunch3]

Woah, this is a lot of reading, maybe will try to read it all later. But for now I'll just add my insignificant opinion about this topic seems to be.

Saddam didn't have WMD, but he used to have them AND he did use them, even on his own people just to tighten his dictatorship. The world doesn't trust this guy to play rational, although many in power in Europe are saying 'why now?, isn't North Korea a greater threat'. He was seeking WMD and might have been in position to blackmail world to keep his power with these weapons. The plain truth is that Iraq used to be a threat, but wasn't a year ago militarily, but would likely be in 10 years or something. Taking him out now was insurance for future generations with low cost. Everyone is saying that we have huge casualties with continuing guerilla war or terrorism centralized in Sunni-triangle. But tell me when was the last time a ground/occupied war cost only 300 dead US soldiers and it seems at worst we will lose 1000 people, and maybe 3000 Iraqi civilians/police officers. We had 50,000 dead US soldiers in vietnam, something like millions of allied loses in ww2 not counting civilians.

Terrorism is a threat but think only way to fix it is long term surveilance and reconstructing middleeast's society. There is a lot of poverty and oppression in ME which breeds terrorists, Saudi should be next, they built and funded schools that teach things like 'The zionists have invaded our lands and only those who commit jihad are true muslims'. They are all easy targets militarily but a lot of money/resources/people are needed for reconstruction of societies like that. We did it for Japan and Germany, but don't have resolve now. Maybe if another million are killed by a nuke, I'm pretty sure that resolve will come.

But mostly North Korea is a big risk as is. They have great missle technology and nuclear program in infancy, the longer we wait the more they will have to deter us from war. They could always sell processed uranium to terrorists as long as they get huge amount of money for it. But i doubt they will do that anytime soon because it would be discovered once bomb was used and the NK dictatorship will fall because of the resolve they created in the world. The thing that is stopping us now is that North Korea is not a pushover, 3 million of it's 22 million population is in military or reserve. They have better technology than Iraq, but of course not as good as us. They have guns pointed at Seoul, and a few nukes to use on battlefield or cities. Expect loses in the tens of thousands if we invade now, although we would win would be costly. You thought Iraq is costly, get some imagination and think what will happen in a war with NK. Waiting and hoping for internal change in North Korea might work through economic discussions and talks, but it is a calculated risk that might backfire.

[THE ENFORCER]

The arabs only hate the USA because Bush is a dickhead and sticks his fuckin nose into other countries business...

Also, fuck the Isrealis, OK, they come kick the Palestinians out of their own country saying "Waaaah, this is our promise land" then when the Palestinians want back in, they get shot. Great isnt it?

You have aboslutely no idea!

[THE ENFORCER]

You're basically suggesting that the US should police the world even if most US people don't want to do that. Bush had to lie to get over there, he even lied to his own congress. The fact is that iraq was no threat to the US, not even close, who are we to decide what their government should be? if the people were asking for our help, that would be different, but they don't want us there.

Maybe you think invading iraq was the right thing to do, but was that the right way to do it? I don't want a president who is going to decide what's right for me and then lie to me until I agree.

read post 23

[THE ENFORCER]

I'm only going to talk about the whole economy issue that..Da1 brought up. Every economy has a natural upward and downward turn(except in extreme cases i.e. after WW1 which was brought on by a war)(The Great Depression :P). The thing is....once the economy goes up...infaltion and uch also rise in accordance. When inflation starts to occur, people spend less and the economy goes down..and the cycle repeats itself...

Bleh I couldnt think of what to say...words escaped me....give me a few hours i may be able to remember all what i was going to say.(i had what i was going to say in memory, went to the bathroom, and apparently it went to ;-; )

Thats what i said in post 18