Look to the Past or Future (election, terrorism etc)

[THE ENFORCER]

lol? ROFL!!!
You do realise that it takes at least 10-20 years before ANY state will ever become democratic (with our western civilization eyes)
Sure maybe there will be "free elections" within a year (I even doubt that) but you see, that isnt enough to be considered democratic... Maybe it is to you guys living in the land of the free..
It will be a time with revolution and violence and people not being able to trust anyone, corruption etc etc. You cant just walk into a land "LIBERATE" them and then "help them organise a democratic structure" and then within 2 years its all settled. How can you even THINK that? Open your eyes and take a look around the world... Look at the ex communist states, the countries in africa,south america and so on. HELL, Italy has been "free" for more than 50 years and its still not democratic enough.

What do you mean democratic enough, if the people can vote in thier politicans then thats democracy for me. If you want to ellaborate on democracy then go for it explain to me how it is more than that?

Then again, Im talking with a guy who thinks the worst constitution in the world is ok and something every country should aim for.

"the worst constitution" so you think we should turn back our clocks and go to old facism before USA ever came into exsistence?

really Im not anti american or anything, but I think its a shame that you guys rather go abroad fighting another country (no, RAPE another country) than dealing with the problems you have in your OWN country. Sure I have never been in USA, so I might be wrong... But from what I hear on tv/movies/documentary and read in books (from both left wingers right wingers and liberals) you guys have a fucked up economy,you got guns everywhere that anyone can get and there are murderers everywhere and people being afraid to even go out (and this being in "the home of the brave").According to UN about 1/9 of the population live under the official poverty line and with that I dont mean people who have to live on welfare.. no I mean people with just as bad conditions that you have around the world in other countries that has "been deomcratic" within a year after "liberation".
I doubt all of that is true and i probably have seen the same things as you, but i also dont live in USA

I have so say your a little extreme.

[THE ENFORCER]

Actually, Israel was the israelites country back in Roman times. They Israelis didnt want to be ruled by anyone, and wanted to be their own people not dominated by others. The rebelled, and the romans sent a couple legions (the number escapes me) to quell it. The romans crushed the rebellion, and sent the israelis scurrying across the then "conquered" world, afraid of being eradicated by the Romans. So technially, it WAS the Israelis untill tehy were thrown out, and then the Palestinians moved in, and lived there till after WW2 when the Israelis wanted their homeland back

If you want to go further back into time, leaving egypt?

[THE ENFORCER]

Israel just added 10 years and 100,000 more bodies to that conflict. Assasinating an old blind man in a wheelchair with a missle, while he's leaving a church was probably the dumbest thing anybody could do ever.

I hate people like you cause you pass judgement but they are not really your judgement but what you see in the biased media. Hamas is an organisation that has killed about 400,000 Israeli's many personally ordered by Yassin. And you say oh he is an old man in a wheel chair well it has nothing to do with that! its what he symbolises he is the leader! Hamas has rejected every single peace plan made by israel, Hamas has made it world knowledge that they dont recognise the state of Israel at all and will keep fightining until all Jews have left Israel so clearly they dont believe in peace so thats why Israel obviously wants to get rid of em. However the main impact is now leaders who generally were immune to Israel's force cause they would send teenage boys into israel with bombs strapped around him to kill many civilians sitting in a pizza parlour or on a bus (not stratgic buildings like what Israel targets but civilians many of whom are women and children!) therefore if anyone was to get arrested it was the teenage boy with the bombs around him and not the leader who sent him. Now Israel is fed up with this, they are sick of the killing they want to stop leaders sending in terrorists so now the leaders who were previously immune to Israels are now not Israel by assinating Yassin has made a clear statement that instead of targetting the teenagers with bombs they are going to target the leaders! So now all the leaders are running scared and will refrain from sending in terrorists or they will be shot! Israel just wants to end this madness by peace settlements, organisations like Hamas what to keep it going until the whole of Israel is dead so im sorry but you can not think Israel is the worse of the two!


Onto the war joant, USA invaded Iraq under false pretenses, then changed the reason for the war post facto. Ends do not justify the means no matter how much you like the ends. Saddam Hussein = bad man, Alfred Moisiu = bad man, Ali Hoseini = bad man, Nawaf Al-Ahmad Al-Jaber Al-Sabah = bad man, so what distinguishes Hussein as someone to assasinate? Is it because of the intercontinental missles he had (that went 250 miles), or the Weapons of mass destruction he had his finger on (SCARE SCARE SCARE!!) or how about those drones he was testing (that, like everything I've mentioned didn't exist). Saddam was no bigger of a threat than any of these other "evil-doers". So why him? Why Iraq?

Read post 23

This is what upsets me the most when people pass judgment on Israel they rarely have all the facts and make organisations like Hamas heros but tell me a hero that slaughters Women and Children? You turn a blind eye to these facts so i seriously you people just anger me! When 9/11 happened all you people were out of revenge and wanted Osama's head but in Israel a 9/11 happens every week! and you guys side with the terrorist that doesnt make sense to me! Israel has a right to exist without worrying if their children are going to blow up today. Israel has offered palastiens alot of land over the past and they always decline, so Israel is more than happy to live with the palastiens side by side, its the palastiens problem they dont want Israel at all they are unwilling to compremise to why do you side with people who are unwilling to have peace! Look at all the interviews every single israeli mentions peace in every interview look at all these leaders they all say war. Is that what you want war????

[THE ENFORCER]

So if Native Americans ask nicely all the Europeans will go back home right? Forcing Israelis on the Palestinians was a terrible compromise to satiate Jewish people after WW2.

Then please tell me your genius plan that would of made bring happiness to both people!

Fact is anywhere Israel went people would of complained so where could we go that would cause peace?

I think the best solution is for the Palastiens to give up thier hate for the Jews and come live in the parts of Israel (which is alot of land considering how small Israel is) that were offered to them and make peace. Thats all what Israel wants.

[THE ENFORCER]

It wasnt a point by point rebuttal. I already told you I lost that data. That was only a taste of what was in my copy buffer.

oh ok

[THE ENFORCER]

Why question mark? Be self confident - look at THE ENFORCER, even though all the people who replied to this thread disagreed with him, he still goes on as if he is the chosen one. I mean sometimes you do look more experienced in certain field when you just sound self-assured, even though what you say is completely wrong, kz *oink* *oink*

Well i know alot of people who agree with me! I

m just trying to provide the otherside of the argument im doing this for the benefit of you guys not me! I know both sides of the argument for most topics, i just provide the otherside so you are not too rash in your judgement. But hey if you dont want to make informed desicions so when this topic comes up in real life then say now and i will stop and leave! I really dont care.

[THE ENFORCER]

I just figured it out, I'm so fucking stupid. I'm sitting here thinking "god damn this enforcer guy sounds just like telcat"... he IS telcat, isn't he?

they have the same "look at me, I'm so smart about everything even though I never make a valid point" tone about them, and now she jumps in and it all becomes clear.

But telcat is arguing against me and directly insulting me?

[THE ENFORCER]

You guys are never going to change the enforcer's view, and the enforcer is never going to change your views. People are set in their beliefs and a spaceshipgame forum is the last place someone is going to change their mind. This thread and many like it are a waste of bandwidth, space, and time. Lock it.

Well all i care is if people understand the other side of the argument.

[THE ENFORCER]

Woah, this is a lot of reading, maybe will try to read it all later. But for now I'll just add my insignificant opinion about this topic seems to be.

Saddam didn't have WMD, but he used to have them AND he did use them, even on his own people just to tighten his dictatorship. The world doesn't trust this guy to play rational, although many in power in Europe are saying 'why now?, isn't North Korea a greater threat'. He was seeking WMD and might have been in position to blackmail world to keep his power with these weapons. The plain truth is that Iraq used to be a threat, but wasn't a year ago militarily, but would likely be in 10 years or something. Taking him out now was insurance for future generations with low cost. Everyone is saying that we have huge casualties with continuing guerilla war or terrorism centralized in Sunni-triangle. But tell me when was the last time a ground/occupied war cost only 300 dead US soldiers and it seems at worst we will lose 1000 people, and maybe 3000 Iraqi civilians/police officers. We had 50,000 dead US soldiers in vietnam, something like millions of allied loses in ww2 not counting civilians.

Terrorism is a threat but think only way to fix it is long term surveilance and reconstructing middleeast's society. There is a lot of poverty and oppression in ME which breeds terrorists, Saudi should be next, they built and funded schools that teach things like 'The zionists have invaded our lands and only those who commit jihad are true muslims'. They are all easy targets militarily but a lot of money/resources/people are needed for reconstruction of societies like that. We did it for Japan and Germany, but don't have resolve now. Maybe if another million are killed by a nuke, I'm pretty sure that resolve will come.

But mostly North Korea is a big risk as is. They have great missle technology and nuclear program in infancy, the longer we wait the more they will have to deter us from war. They could always sell processed uranium to terrorists as long as they get huge amount of money for it. But i doubt they will do that anytime soon because it would be discovered once bomb was used and the NK dictatorship will fall because of the resolve they created in the world. The thing that is stopping us now is that North Korea is not a pushover, 3 million of it's 22 million population is in military or reserve. They have better technology than Iraq, but of course not as good as us. They have guns pointed at Seoul, and a few nukes to use on battlefield or cities. Expect loses in the tens of thousands if we invade now, although we would win would be costly. You thought Iraq is costly, get some imagination and think what will happen in a war with NK. Waiting and hoping for internal change in North Korea might work through economic discussions and talks, but it is a calculated risk that might backfire.

For war on terror we need to focus on mid-east, but i also agree with NK they maybe a possible threat but not for some time. Its kinda hard to invade NK because the govt is kinda stable (by that i mean they arent killing thier own civilians), so the only plausable reason of invasion is to dismantle the weapons but after Iraq i dont think USA could gain support for such an invasion also NK have claimed they have given up most of their nuclear weapons (so we could believe that? But i dont)

[Mattey]

Saddam didn't have WMD, but he used to have them AND he did use them, even on his own people just to tighten his dictatorship.

Lincoln murdered millions of his own people. What a terrible, terrible leader. If only another country came in uninvited and removed him.

[Mattey]

This is what upsets me the most when people pass judgment on Israel they rarely have all the facts and make organisations like Hamas heros but tell me a hero that slaughters Women and Children? You turn a blind eye to these facts so i seriously you people just anger me! When 9/11 happened all you people were out of revenge and wanted Osama's head but in Israel a 9/11 happens every week! and you guys side with the terrorist that doesnt make sense to me! Israel has a right to exist without worrying if their children are going to blow up today. Israel has offered palastiens alot of land over the past and they always decline, so Israel is more than happy to live with the palastiens side by side, its the palastiens problem they dont want Israel at all they are unwilling to compremise to why do you side with people who are unwilling to have peace! Look at all the interviews every single israeli mentions peace in every interview look at all these leaders they all say war. Is that what you want war????

Hamas ordered people to kill other people. He was not a good man, but who has the right to assasinate another country's leader (besides the U.S.)? If Israel wanted Hamas so badly they should have arrested him as he left the church (unless they were afraid he'd wheel himself to freedom).

Would you be willing to compromise if somebody moved into your house and made you live on your lawn? Especially if they took everything and offered you the bathroom? And the Israelis always mentioning peace is akin to Bush saying he looks out for the common man (saying something doesn't make it true. Israel and Palestine will never, ever coexist together, it was a terrible idea to move the Jews there, but what's done is done. The war won't be over until one of the groups is exterminated (Native American style).

[Cylor]

Talk about your double posts.

[Gemfire]

Lincoln murdered millions of his own people. What a terrible, terrible leader. If only another country came in uninvited and removed him.

um...as i recall...Lincoln didn't WANT to kill any american. The south broke away from the union, thereby breaking the law :d. They provoked the North into a battle, and unless youre saying you want there to still be slavery, then Lincoln did the right thing by stopping the rebellion. If you can give me one good reasons for what Saddam killed his people for, then im willing to listen :d

[lunch3]

Lincoln murdered millions of his own people. What a terrible, terrible leader. If only another country came in uninvited and removed him.

Lincoln did not commit xenocide, he conducted a war that the senate approved and the northern populace was mostly for, well at least in the beginning.

Saddam ruled by hiring street thugs to office who routinely practiced torture just for the thrill of it. Killed anyone who opposed him. Gased 2,000 Kurds in a northern village to put down the rebellion that occurred right after the Gulf War. Extracted monuments and pictures of himself everywhere to press the idea 'he was always watching' like in that 1984 book. Mass graves to incite fear and therefore orderlyness. Tried to invade another country, ie Kuwait. Lied to UN and obstructed weapon search, it will be a long time til we figure out why he did that knowing he had no weapons to hide. rejected numerous proposals for safe passage out of iraq to prevent war.

You want to hate the US? Do it because we sent propaganda in Iraq during Gulf War saying to Iraqi people 'rise up and we will help you'. When what we did was listen to people say, continued war will be too costly, let's stop and not invade Iraq after we kicked them out of Kuwait. We even allowed Saddam the use of his helicoptors to put down the rebellion, we only limited his air force in north and south. Iraqi's hated us for this but are happy that we at least finished the job, although late.

European pessimism, caution, and dishonor led to WW2. You guys allowed Hitler to invade Czechslovakia believing that he would stop there because Hitler promised. You sat by as Poland was conquered. You did not pay attention to the air force Germany practically showcased for you during the Spainish Civil War and therefore did not prepare for it. You created the hatred that German's had against the rest of Europe with the unfair and unmerciful treaty of Versailles which in turn allowed someone like Hitler to come to power. Europe punished Germany after WW1 even though they agreed to stop fighting for concessions, which probably saved about a million lives, by indebting them for all the damage war brought, cutting their country up, and occupying them. It was instead not a treaty but an unconditional surrender smuggled out after the German soldiers went home thinking they saved their country some trouble in a cleaner and quicker defeat. Europe did not take time and effort to rebuild the society, as you did after WW2, although America helped you a great deal then and ALSO reconstructed Japan by ourselves. We fought your war for you so you could survive, and now America is all about preventing the same thing from happening.

The UN is not helping reconstruction after the fact and instead is complaing about not getting job contracts, going back to arguement that war should not have happened. The US is doing a lot and spending a lot of money with reconstruction while Europe sits by smugly. Your governments are even punishing our country with gay resolutions like banning genetic food. Stop hurting and bickering and do something useful.

The US has tons of money, to go on weird but rational tangent, which is because we are also a hard working society, on average an american works 1900 hours a year, average in Europe is 1600 hours about. So if you guys want more say in world events get off your lazy ass and compete economically. The US is almost the biggest donor to world problems, behind Japan and maybe a few others, like recently donating 5 billion dollars to Africa for AIDS, while all of Europe combined gave less than 1 billion dollars. I concede I might be ignorant about last few sentences, so cite me some examples about what Europe does to better world to enhance mine and others knowledge.

You cannot deny Saddam could possibly have been another Hitler with his history.

On the Israel topic, we were wrong to take away some land after WW2 and set it up for Jews, even though that much of the land is very holy to Muslims in general. We did a very disgraceful and humilitating thing by just taking some of their most holy lands. In not Catholic, but think what the western world would think if some minority Muslim group took and occupied Rome, the site of the birth of our type of civilizations, and we had no power to stop them.............................................. ........ie we lived in stoneage and they ruled in the industrial world even though just a thousand years ago we were the most advanced civilization in the world.

[THE ENFORCER]

Hamas ordered people to kill other people. He was not a good man, but who has the right to assasinate another country's leader (besides the U.S.)? If Israel wanted Hamas so badly they should have arrested him as he left the church (unless they were afraid he'd wheel himself to freedom).

Would you be willing to compromise if somebody moved into your house and made you live on your lawn? Especially if they took everything and offered you the bathroom? And the Israelis always mentioning peace is akin to Bush saying he looks out for the common man (saying something doesn't make it true. Israel and Palestine will never, ever coexist together, it was a terrible idea to move the Jews there, but what's done is done. The war won't be over until one of the groups is exterminated (Native American style).

Another country's leader???? Yassin is the leader of the terrorist group Hamas it is excatly the same as killing Osama Bin Ladan if USA killed Osama would you say that was wrong? Note the leader of the Palasteins is Arafat!!
Note: Yassin was arrested several times in the past that had no impact on Hamas!
If someone moved into my house by winning a war over terrority i would obviously be upset but if they turned that house into a Mansion and then offered me about 40% of the house i would rathe take that then killing all the civilians in the house and grab 100% of the house back!

Israelis and Palastiens and co-exist infact many palastiens do want peace and want to live together! It is the terrorist organisations such as Hamas who dont want peace!