LOL We need this in Subspace

[Sarien]

I don't wonder at all: Because a bunch of little cowards that have a completely fucked up sense of right and wrong get ahold of their daddy's gun. Boo-Hoo for the poor little kiddy that shot the place up. Not quite. I'm old enough to have been a geeky kid long before the notion of being geeky was even thought of as mildly entertaining, and for fucking years we took our lumps from bullies and never once did I or any of the others I knew even think about MURDER. It takes a special brand of cowardice to do that.

Before word one in argument is made:
It IS cowardice. There are a thousand solutions to be found before you pick up a gun and end someone's life. The fact is these kids are simply too chickenshit to try any of them. Even taking a baseball bat and wearing out the kid that is bullying you to show that no, you won't take it for an instant longer, is a giant leap down from murdering them dead. Ghandi defeated the entire british army without firing a shot, don't even begin to tell me that these fucking little shits have no choice but to shoot people dead in cold blood.

[Troll King]

Yes, he's in a position of authority, and it would be a real shame if the kid WAS a crybaby and whining all the time, and this taught him to stop being so, rather than teaching him that by whining louder and possibly getting lawyers involved, he can get his way. The article didn't say and I have no idea if they nominated each other or not, but even with him designating the "award" which I find quite funny that EVERY person on the team won an award. (Yay I'm 5th MVP! maybe, I dunno) The one thing I was most surprised about in your reply TK, while I respect your views on this subject, I just do not and will not ever agree with them, is this:



This is jumping to a conclusion, making an assumption, and (I assume) you haven't even spoken to the man or anyone involved. It doesn't prove anything other than the fact that he called him and said he'd be getting a special trophy. For all you know, he could have been giggling and tittering like a little schoolgirl throughout that entire call. If he is a Special Education teacher, you didn't specify whether it was that he taught special education classes, and also coached a team, that was or was not made up of his special education students. The article probably didn't specify either, which would lead me to believe that most likely: The team isn't made of special ed students. To be pointedly honest.. if this award is the most damaging thing that happens to that 13 year old, then he needs consider himself one of the luckiest people on the planet.

First, since the kid had no idea what was happening, and he was a member of that team then no, the team did not nominate the awards. The coach did. If you want proof, here's another article on the topic which says the coach admitted it was his idea for the award.
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial...05/1030074.asp

Second, because he's in a position of authority, he should not be doing anything that will cause humiliation or embarassment to one of his charges. In my jurisdiction, his actions here would be grounds for a review by the College of Teachers for professional misconduct.

Thirdly, look at the damn trophy. It's a statuette of a baby crying, and the kid's name is even spelt wrong. It's not like it's an off the cuff issue that happened in an instant. The coach planned to give him the award, went and got the award, and then especially invited him to come and receive an award. And it's not like it's a private players only event, but a BANQUET. Do you expect anyone to have done this and not expect the kid to be humiliated?
Even if he was "giggling and tittering like a school girl" it doesn't change that fact. Look at the quote from the father asking for his son to be treated like everyone else on that team was, "no more, no less". From this article:
http://kdka.com/water/watercooler_story_125155237.html
the team was ordered to hold another banquet and the boy was to receive the same trophy and certificate that the rest of the team got. That means that everyone else got the same trophy, but this one kid was singled out and received the crybaby award.

The first article I linked to above says that the coach claimed he did not intend to humiliate, and thought it would be a positive award. I don't buy that at all, not in the face of his comment that the boy got the award because "he begged to get in the game, and all he did was whine." If he felt that the trophy itself was such a positive thing, that quote said the complete opposite.

Fourthly, yes, he was a teacher of special education students at that school. Whether the members of the team were special education students is irrelevant. The point was that special ed teachers deal with students that often have to face embarassment and teasing from fellow students because they are in special ed. Because of that, he's expected to be sensitive to what affect that award would have. It doesn't mean that he has to be that way just to his special ed students, but to all students. So even if he really believed the award was positive, that just shows that he lacks the judgement and knowledge expected of him.

I don't think you quite understand the importance when I said he was in a position of authority. When I say that, it means that he is expected to set an example to all students, and that he is responsible for any effect on his students or players. It's a matter of professional standards. All education regions have some form of a governing body that issues licenses to their teachers, and that same body is there to ensure that its teachers meet those standards. Any arguments that begin with the phrase "yes, he is in a position of authority, but..." should stop right there, because that alone is enough, no matter what follows the "but...".

Now, I understand you didn't read those other articles, and I'm not faulting you for it, but I'm just explaining to you that, from a professional standpoint, this case is a bit more serious than you seem to think it is.

[Sarien]

Wow a real and genuine lecture. I've said it already, I do not think what the coach did was that bad, and I will not ever believe it. You're right in the fact that originally I didn't go read those other articles, because I didn't feel the need to research it. I've read them now though and I am mightily entertained.

First, Agreed it was his idea as stated in that first article.

Second, humiliation and embarrassment? Oh that poor tender youth. If it had been me that received the award at first I would have been embarrassed but then I would have had to laugh it off, and proceed to turn it into something positive.

Thirdly, There is no place in either article that says WHY the kid's name was spelled incorrectly. Was it on purpose, did it happen where the trophies were made on accident? Who knows? I doubt you do. The context, you of all people should know, DOES change lots of things.

Let us quote from your own first article that you tried to play off by merely saying you don't buy it.. whether or not it was actually true:

Coyle said the coach had received a Crybaby Award as a teenager while playing in a summer recreation league and that it was meant to recognize athletic ability, leadership skills and vocal participation.

He wanted to honor Philo, who was a starter for most of the season on a team that won its league championship, not ridicule him, according to Coyle.

Coyle.. as in the guy that determines whether or not the coach is fired for the incident (he wasn't fired, thank goodness). The kid isn't just a player but a starting player.. which means that he is quite obviously a good player, or at the least among the best players that their team can field.

and Fourthly .. it determines a HELL of a lot if his students were special education students or not.. considering that you know the trials and tribulations of what special education students have to go through, and why they have to go through it.. one would think you'd understand that there would be a difference based on if you could deal with the kid as a normal kid his age or one with special needs. He wasn't a special ed kid. He was a basketball player, and a starting one at that.

I don't think that you understand, that it doesn't matter to me whether you judge him guilty by your professional standards while not being involved in the details or not. There was no "but" in my statement...

Yes, he's in a position of authority, and it would be a real shame if the kid WAS a crybaby and whining all the time, and this taught him to stop being so, rather than teaching him that by whining louder and possibly getting lawyers involved, he can get his way.

Again from your own first article:

Pleasantville teachers union president Jean Hovey said the coach didn't deserve termination.

"Nobody should have a promising teaching career shot down by an obvious bad taste of judgment. To go as far as they're going? That's unconscionable," said Hovey, president of the Pleasantville Education Association.

Get in an uproar if you like, it makes me no never mind. I do not and will not feel regardless of all your attempting to rationalize, and in fact, bully me towards your "professional standpoint" that what this coach did was in any way worthy of termination, or all that bad.

[Troll King]

I'm going to do this backwards, because the arguments are easier that way.

The Union isn't the most reliable place to look. It's in their best interest that their person doesn't get fired. They're supposed to support their members like the guy you quoted did. I'm talking about a governing body that distributes teaching licenses.

You're missing my point about him being a special ed teacher. I'm not saying that he should treat the player better because he may be a special ed student. I'm saying that all teachers, especially special ed teachers, are expected to show better judgement towards any and all students under them. Whether the student was special ed or not doesn't affect my point.

And thirdly, it doesn't matter if you would have laughed it off if you were in that situation, or because you thought it wasn't that embarassing. The point is that it was embarassing, and that itself is reason enough for some action.

Now, I'm not saying he should lose his job over this. Suspension from coaching any other teams is fair enough. I'm just saying that you're shrugging things off a bit too easily.

[Awesome]

Umm, of course he should lose his job. A lot of kids get made fun of by their peers already and don't need the teachers joining in against them. Every teacher i've ever seen getting into those situations has been to defend the unfortunate student, not kick him while he's down.

[code]

Lol, you guys really get into this.. some of you must type 200 WPM.

Of course its wrong, but shit its damn funny :up:

[Rosstones]

If a teacher did that to me i woulda smashed his teeth in with a bat... he deserves to be fired.

[PipArchDevil]

I had already heard about this...on the national news!!

[Subjugation]

Before word one in argument is made:
It IS cowardice.

i know we've had this disagreement before, and i don't want to turn this into a word mincing session, but w/e. you say it's cowardice, and i don't think it's that simple. cowardice is about fear. i don't think it's a big secret that if you go on a mad rampage shooting up a school that you will either die in the process, or spend the rest of your life in custody. i think even small kids realize that. any person who is soley fear-minded wouldn't commit murder. i think kids who do that kind of thing are motivated by desperation.

people don't throw their lives away out of fear. they throw their lives away because they think they have nothing to lose.

[Legionair]

Thanks for taking care of this TK, saved me some time.

-Legionair