Research 9/11

[Benno]

Who watches fox and cnn? I don't know if it's the same radio show tone is refering to, but I heard about coast to coast AM with art bell when I was about 8yrs old...from a disney adventures magazine. In fact most of the sources used agaisnt tone are his own with logic applied.

Operation northwoods (1960s) - this proves what? that the government drafted a plan that was never used. Moreover this plan was drafted long before any of the current "conspirators" were even on the scene. So at most it proves a government is capable of planing something dark, but this is generic and weak. No current government or terrorist agency is affiliated with this plan in any way (see the 1960 part?) so this says nothing specific or relevent. If you were on prosecuting lawyer in a murder trial would you present a news article about the son of sam? only if you were thick.

blurry photos and MS paint diagrams - you can't see a fucking thing. The MS paint drawings are even worse because the authors don't have any more evidence about the precise plane impact angles than anyone else.

So far the only thing you have come even close to proving is the most generic and unprofound "a governement is capable of doing something bad". If you want to convince anyone that bin laden, bush, and the US government, the UK govt., the polish govt., the pope, the jews, whoever are "all in it for oil" you have a long hill to climb.

[Theif of Time]

His insistance that the collapse of the towers could only have been due to explosives is also absurd, as it has been shown that all skyscrapers are built to collapse straight down. Imagine the chaos (not to mention the architects irresponsibility) if a 20 story skyscraper collapsed in an earthquake and fell horizontally, blocking off several streets, taking out several more buildings with it. You'd be living in a city of dominoes (I say you because we have nothing that tall in new zealand... our cities are tiny compared to american or european cities)

[Tone]

His methods, logic and ideas are completely out of this world. He's ignoring things, mostly whenever I post on here and continues to post his discredited and crappy sourced material. No, we're not looking at CNN and calling Tone a dumbass (maybe you should keep up with the thread before you want to make judgments Bob), we're looking at the facts, the people involved and the professionals making statments and in the end the plausibility and logic of the different sinerios. Could Bush and Co. be involved it in, there's a chance of it but not in the way tone has spelled it out, ever. If he said there was a connection between the planes and the Bush Admin. and not some half ass discredited and unbelievable story about bombs inside the WTC i'm sure he'd get a lot more people here not calling him a shit head, hell I'd probably even consider his bullshit then.

As for the hatred, look at him. He believe he's above everyone here, he beleives we should all know, think and believe in what he does and really, when his shit is about ignoring facts and making up half ass conspires.... My respect and ability to work and even know about people like him only goes so far. I wouldn't call someone who's closed minded, annoying and an ass to everyone not like him "smart", he's posting a few unreliable sites and is piecing his theroy together from circumstantial stories that makes no sense, it's not enough anyone to believe in and it's not worth anyones time to be looking at.

We love ya Liquid :P. Most Canadians are not happy about foreign policy, church and state issues and other things like that but mostly and we don't hate Americans.. only fundamentalist and the people who would give them power.

go ahead, keep ignoring everything if you want. ignore the mounds of evidence. if you can honestly be so naive and dumb enough to believe in 19 hijackers (some confirmed alive), flying school failures, and boxcutters. how can you be so dumb, youd think you couldnt sell this to someone who believes in santa even

[Liquid Blue]

Babies, I love babies. They smell like fun times and happy things.

[Theif of Time]

Tone: A couple questions. Please answer. How to buildings collapse, Horizontally or vertically? What is the most sensible way to design a building to collapse? And why is it surprising that the WTC collapsed straight down?
EDIT: And just because we do not believe you, doesn't mean we believe the opposite viewpoint. Don't pull a Bush on us and say "You're either with us, or against us!"

[Tone]

9/11 prior knowlege archive

http://www.prisonplanet.com/911.html

WRH

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/

http://www.911truthla.us

How can the 9/11 Commission be taken seriously when they refer to 9/11 'hijackers' who are still alive?

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/hijackers.html

5 israelis arrested in NYC on 9/11

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.html

* Is it pure coincidence that FEMA was in New York on September 10? Why did they deny this fact?
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fematape.html [A]

* If WTC 1 was constructed with weak trusses and weak bolts then how did it withstand the impact of Flight 11?
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/trusstheory.html

* Why were staff in WTC 2 instructed to stay in the building following Flight 11's impact into WTC 1?
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/jackasses.html

* How was it known that the World Trade Center was going to collapse? Why were only a select few told?
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc_giuliani.html [V]

* Where were the 800°C infernos in the buildings?
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc_fire.htm [A] [V]

* Why didn't firefighters in the impact area of WTC 2 report a blazing inferno or failing trusses before the building's collapse?
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wt...efighters.html [A]

* Why did firefighters report bombs in the WTC buildings? Why did firefighters report explosions before the collapses?
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/911_firefighters.html [A]

* Why didn't structural debris fall from the burning towers? Why did trusses in WTC 2 spontaneously fail across entire floors?
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc_trusses.html [V]

* Why did white smoke appear at the base of WTC 1 roughly 10 seconds before its collapse?
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/shake.html [V]

* How did WTC 1's structure remain intact as it collapsed?
http://whatreallyhappened.com/911_smoking_gun.html [V]

* Larry Silverstein said of WTC 7 "the smartest thing to do is pull it" (i.e. demolish it), and all evidence points to this occurring. When and why were demolition charges placed in the building?
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/cutter.html [A] [V]

* How could conventional fires produce temperatures in excess of 700°C in the WTC wreckage?
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/thermite.htm

* How could conventional fires in the WTC wreckage burn for three months?
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc_fires_911.html

* Why was the investigation into the WTC collapses an underfunded farce?
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc_fema_911.html

Wild conspiracy theory?

[Benno]

go ahead, keep ignoring everything if you want. ignore the mounds of evidence. if you can honestly be so naive and dumb enough to believe in 19 hijackers (some confirmed alive), flying school failures, and boxcutters. how can you be so dumb, youd think you couldnt sell this to someone who believes in santa even

whoa so they failed flying school? DOES THAT MEAN THEY WERE IN FLYING SCHOOL? Oh...they were...so why? to become pilots? hmmm, why would they...I wonder why the failed...maybe they failed the landing the plane part...*gasP* OMG!11.

Common sense: the difficult parts of flying a plane are landing, precise manuvering, adhering to FAA rules regarding speed and altitude, etc. If you wanted to point a plane like a missle into a building, you wouldn't need any of these skills. I could pick up a copy of MS flight simulator and probably have "crashing the plane into a huge object" skill under my belt in what, a day? You can post all the bullshit you want, but untill you learn to be objective and not take everything at face value, you'll never be anything about a lame plagerizer.

[Tone]

Frank A. DeMartini, Manager, WTC Construction and Project Management, discusses the fact that the WTC towers were designed to take multiple hits from airliners and not collapse, comparing it to poking a pencil through fly netting, DeMartini was adament that the towers would not collapse. DeMartini died in the towers on 9/11, this interview clip was taken from video shot in January 2001.

see the inverview video here:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles...gnedtotake.htm

[Jerome Scuggs]

I could pick up a copy of MS flight simulator and probably have "crashing the plane into a huge object" skill under my belt in what, a day?

Just to elaborate on this theory, I just installed my old copy of MS flight simulator, loaded it up, and tossed a 707 into the WTC (old copy of MSFS) in exactly 28 minutes and 56 seconds, including installation

[Kolar]

Again what's more logical and plausible tone? Bombs in the WTC when it's been disproven by MIT and news sources and engineers, Auto piolot planes when Air Traffic was in contact with more then one of the planes during the hijacking. All of this doesn't add up to Bush having his hand in it, A 1960 idea to do something like this doesn't prove Bush Co. did it either, only that the scum that our common political processes can counger up knows no bounds..

I don't ignore things like you do, I've looked at everything and even the bullshit side of theories and speculation sites and I've come to the simple conclusion that terrorist with or without the help of your Govn. blew up the WTC. I don't believe you've left that sphere of tinfoil quite yet.

Frank A. DeMartini, Manager, WTC Construction and Project Management, discusses the fact that the WTC towers were designed to take multiple hits from airliners and not collapse, comparing it to poking a pencil through fly netting, DeMartini was adament that the towers would not collapse. DeMartini died in the towers on 9/11, this interview clip was taken from video shot in January 2001.

see the inverview video here:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles...gnedtotake.htm

We already told you the tempature and the impact together burning over time had enough energy to cuase the steel to lose strength and fail, go read over what Conc said and stop ignoring shit already done.

[Tone]

http://st12.startlogic.com/%7Exenonp...explosions.htm

and

http://www.chiefengineer.org/article.cfm?seqnum1=1029

First-hand Accounts of Underground Explosions In The North Tower

This article from Chief Engineer magazine presents eyewitness account of the moments after the first plane crash, and describes evidence of large explosions in the lobby, parking garage and subbasement levels of WTC-1 at the time of the crash

It contains some fascinating first-hand accounts of the events of September 11 as recounted by operating engineers on the scene. One of the most remarkable is the story of Mike Pecoraro, who was working in the 6th sub-basement of the North Tower when the first plane hit. Here are some excerpts:

Stationary Engineer Mike Pecoraro

At about 6:45 he went to the mechanical shop in the second subbasement, ate his breakfast and chatted with his co-workers who were also arriving for the normal 8:00 a.m. beginning of their shift. Mike’s assignment that day would be to continue constructing a gantry that would be used to pull the heads from the 2,500 ton chillers, located in the 6th sub- basement level of the tower. 49,000 tons of refrigeration equipment were located in the lower level of the tower. The 2,500 ton units were the smallest in use...


Deep below the tower, Mike Pecoraro was suddenly interrupted in his grinding task by a shake on his shoulder from his co-worker. “Did you see that?” he was asked. Mike told him that he had seen nothing. “You didn’t see the lights flicker?”, his co-worker asked again. “No,” Mike responded, but he knew immediately that if the lights had flickered, it could spell trouble. A power surge or interruption could play havoc with the building’s equipment. If all the pumps trip out or pulse meters trip, it could make for a very long day bringing the entire center’s equipment back on-line.

Mike told his co-worker to call upstairs to their Assistant Chief Engineer and find out if everything was all right. His co-worker made the call and reported back to Mike that he was told that the Assistant Chief did not know what happened but that the whole building seemed to shake and there was a loud explosion. They had been told to stay where they were and “sit tight” until the Assistant Chief got back to them. By this time, however, the room they were working in began to fill with a white smoke. “We smelled kerosene,” Mike recalled, “I was thinking maybe a car fire was upstairs”, referring to the parking garage located below grade in the tower but above the deep space where they were working.

The two decided to ascend the stairs to the C level, to a small machine shop where Vito Deleo and David Williams were supposed to be working. When the two arrived at the C level, they found the machine shop gone.

“There was nothing there but rubble, “Mike said. “We’re talking about a 50 ton hydraulic press – gone!” The two began yelling for their co-workers, but there was no answer. They saw a perfect line of smoke streaming through the air. “You could stand here,” he said, “and two inches over you couldn’t breathe. We couldn’t see through the smoke so we started screaming.” But there was still no answer.

The two made their way to the parking garage, but found that it, too, was gone. “There were no walls, there was rubble on the floor, and you can’t see anything” he said.

They decided to ascend two more levels to the building’s lobby. As they ascended to the B Level, one floor above, they were astonished to see a steel and concrete fire door that weighed about 300 pounds, wrinkled up “like a piece of aluminum foil” and lying on the floor. “They got us again,” Mike told his co-worker, referring to the terrorist attack at the center in 1993. Having been through that bombing, Mike recalled seeing similar things happen to the building’s structure. He was convinced a bomb had gone off in the building.

Consider the implications of what Mr. Pecoraro describes: At this point the only overt damage to the building was the plane crash some 95 floors above, which could not have caused violent explosions underground. Since the towers were anchored at the base to the bedrock the shaking caused by the crash would have been greatest close to the crash site, getting progressively weaker as it approached the rigid attachment at the bottom. Yet the underground damage he describes can not have been the result of a mere shaking - nothing short of an explosion could reduce the contents of a machine shop to rubble.



Damage to the North Tower Lobby

The damage to the parking garage and lobby simultaneous with the first plane impact are also indicative of the effects of high explosives, with widespread blast damage and fine dust covering the entire scene. Below is a link to a video clip of the WTC-1 lobby area just after the first plane crash, as seen in the documentary "9/11" made by Jules and Gedeon Naudet:

The narrator claims that he "later learned" that there had been an explosion caused by fuel pouring down an elevator shaft, but the lobby shows none of the soot or fuel residue we would expect from such an explosion. Instead we see blown-out windows and a fine dry dust covering the entire lobby, very much the signature of high explosives. Similar damage to the parking garages and subbasements can only be explained by pre-placed explosive charges that were detonated at the moment of the plane's impact.



Another account of underground blasts

Construction worker Phillip Morelli describes being thrown to the ground by two explosions while in the fourth subbasement of the North Tower. The first, which threw him to the ground and seemed to coincide with the plane crash, was followed by a larger blast that again threw him to the ground and this time blew out walls. He then made his way to the South Tower and was in the subbasement there when the second plane hit, again associated with a powerful underground blast. This is one of a series of interviews with WTC survivors done by NY1 News

[Jerome Scuggs]

So in one tinfoil theory the explosives went off after the plane hit. In another, they off off as/before the plane hits.

Excellent.

[Tone]

This is an excerpt from Alex Jones' latest film, 9/11 Martial Law: Rise of the Police State.

The evidence that explosives were used in the 9/11 attack is so overhwelming that three full length films could have been made on the subject alone. In this 22 minute clip Alex reports from ground zero and talks to eyewitnesses who were there on the day who reported bombs. Alex also points out the relation of Building 7 to the twin towers and the impossibility that it could have collapsed from minimal fire damage.

No steel building in history has collapsed from fire damage apart from those buildings lost on 9/11. Larry Silverstein, the owner of the WTC complex admitted on a September 2002 PBS documentary that they decided to 'pull' Building 7, a subject which Popular Mechanics daren't touch in their recent hit piece.

Click here for windows media video:

http://70.84.33.210/%7Einfomedi/vide...alpreview2.wmv

Click here for Apple Quicktime video

http://70.84.33.210/%7Einfomedi/vide...alpreview2.mov

[Theif of Time]

The fact that the building was built to withstand impact from a 707 (As one of your sources stated) Has naught to do with the fact that the towers collapsed straight down, (Or the fact the plane was a 767, a larger sort I have heard) which as you seem to claim is impossible without explosives.
Who here knows how trusses work? If I recall correctly they are able to support large vertical loads through their pin jointed structures, but weakening the structure by means of heat and/or impact by a plane may have a little to do with it. Perhaps there was explosives on the WTC, somewhere. Gas Cyclinders. Chemical storage.

Anyway, how can we know for certain who is right unless the entire event is properly reconstructed?
(Incidentally I personally believe that the 911 commision was underfunded because the Bush administration had more to gain from the horror about 911 than the truth, in short, it was a token gesture that they never intended to act upon. While this suggests that they had alterior motives (War in Iraq for profit) It doesn't mean that they were responsible for it. It simply means they didn't care who did it, because if they knew for certain then they'd have no justification for further acts of aggression. For example, if the 911 commision had found that the Afganistan government were solely behind it, they would have less justification for going after Iraq, and the American Public would have been 'appeased' by the defeat of the Taliban and no longer lust for terrorist blood.)

At this point the only overt damage to the building was the plane crash some 95 floors above, which could not have caused violent explosions underground.

Could it be possibly that flames/sparks had travelled down elevator shafts or other chutes on the impact and ignited some flammable material? Although this article reputes explosions underground, there is no reason to believe (Or disbelieve) it, as those bombs underground could also have been terrorist done. Or the engineer in question could have been himself a terrorist.

[Tone]

http://www.prisonplanet.com/911.html

Another Ignored 9/11 Clue: Bomb Sniffing Dogs Removed From WTC Days Before Attack

Jon Rappoport | June 28 2004

As you’ll see from the Newsday excerpt below, tight security at the Twin Towers in NYC was lightened in the days just before the 9/11 attacks.

What makes the particular removal of bomb-sniffing dogs so important are statements from firemen that they heard bombs going off in the Towers on 9/11, as they were carrying out their rescue operation.

Naturally, if people were planting bombs in the Towers, they would not have wanted those charges to be discovered by trained dogs prior to 9/11.

This matter of the dogs and the statements of firemen about bombs were completely ignored by the 9/11 commission.

Parallel: in the 1995 OKC bombing, there had to have been charges pre-planted on specific columns of the Murrah building, because no truck bomb of any size could have caused the profile of damage sustained by the building on April 19. Certain columns were taken down and certain columns survived intact. A few of the surviving columns were closer to the truck than other columns which went down. It’s likely that, on April 19, as the diversionary blast went off in the Ryder truck, the charges that had already been placed on the columns were set off by remote control from another location. Or the Ryder truck shock wave itself set off detonators embedded in the charges on the columns.

Here is the Newsday excerpt:

Heightened Security Alert Had Just Been Lifted
By Curtis L. Taylor and Sean Gardiner
STAFF WRITERS

September 12, 2001

The World Trade Center was destroyed just days after a heightened security alert was lifted at the landmark 110-story towers, security personnel said yesterday.

Daria Coard, 37, a guard at Tower One, said the security detail had been working 12-hour shifts for the past two weeks because of numerous phone threats. But on Thursday, bomb-sniffing dogs were abruptly removed.

"Today was the first day there was not the extra security," Coard said. "We were protecting below. We had the ground covered. We didn't figure they would do it with planes. There is no way anyone could have stopped that."

Security guard Hermina Jones said officials had recently taken steps to secure the towers against aerial attacks by installing bulletproof windows and fireproof doors in the 22nd-floor computer command center...

End of Newsday excerpt.