Religion and Other Things

[Pandagirl!]

That's what happened to Lee Strobel too. He went out on an investigative case about everything in the bible, from a journalists point of view. He ended up becoming a christian, after everything he found out. His books are actually quite interesting; A Case for Faith and A Case for Christ.

[Kolar]

That's just it... You can have your opinion, but what I'm getting at is, don't base it towards others,

I see Christians and people who call themselves Christians, doing nothing but this constantly.

when you have nothing to show for it, other than your own word... Ok, I can have faith in christianity because of the bible, why do you have faith in yours? What conclusive evidence gave you your ideas? I'm just wondering...

The bible is not conclusive evidence of anything. It has effect many people to do their very worst and their very best. Don't look at it as a historical peice, it is not. I belive in what I see, what's simple (enough to not destroy my mind or get wrapped up in it) and what works. The theories and ideas in science and what we live and see around us is what I use. This is always changing and it doesn't cover everything, as humans we will never know everything. This is going goto the "what evidence do you have bleh bleh..", I know it is. I'm not saying I know more or whatever I think is true, it is more examined, more explainable than faith and religious doctrine.


Religion and Science are two different things, I think you and I have taken different paths to faith. There's nothing wrong with that, I believe that all core beliefs should be passive. You can belive in what you want, I think most people will side on that when facing an ideology of inducing fear to convert people. This may not be what you're into, it is what Christianity is though.

I understand your feelings, trust me, I better than anyone... But, all I can say is, what will it hurt to read the bible for yourself? What will it hurt to have an actual religion, that's been going on for generations now; to lean back on? Do you want to risk eternity because of your own stubbornness? Once you're gone and have to face judgment, you will not be pitied upon, know this...

I see no risk it. We don't know what happens when we die, unless I know I can not believe and since what we believe effects how our reality is created.. all the more reason not to believe in such a possible horror. This is not stubborness, i'm not an atheist and i'm not entirely agnostic. When I decide to believe in something like this it will not be an organzied religion and the universe is not that simple. Some people have to live their lives first.

[Stylez]

Everything you just said is an excuss... I said nothing but to read the bible for yourself or prove your point with actual facts, neither of which you have done yet, your word is still nullified...

[Kolar]

Everything you just said is an excuss... I said nothing but to read the bible for yourself or prove your point with actual facts, which neither of which you have done yet, your word is still nullified...

Prove what points?

We don't know of an after life, you believe in one. We don't know if God exists, you believe in one. I really have nothing to prove here to you or anyone. This is not an attack on your religion, this is saying I believe in this. As a human being you should be able to live with that. I don't think most Christians can.

[Stylez]

Wish they had a delete button... <_<

[Stylez]

Prove what points?

We don't know of an after life, you believe in one. We don't know if God exists, you believe in one. I really have nothing to prove here to you or anyone. This is not an attack on your religion, this is saying I believe in this. As a human being you should be able to live with that. I don't think most Christians can.

You have to prove it to yourself... How can you come up with an opinion based on science and things of todays world, when it comes to religion?

I don't believe in an afterlife, I have faith in it... I never said the bible is a reliable source for anything, I just have faith in its teachings...

You're taking everything I say out of context... You're trying to debate me on this when I'm just giving you some food for thought...

And really, you can't debate me on this... This is a debate on religion, a foundation, so to speak... You don't have one... You have but your own opinion of life, which is the biggest risk you can take...

I just simply told you to either know your facts or don't speculate on a subject you really have no right to participate in, you just make things more confusing for those who are trying to learn... It's like me talking about how it would feel to be raped in a rehabilitation clinic full of raped women, you just can't talk about things you have no clue about, other than a feeling or an assumption...

Instead, ask questions, learn things you seem to not understand fully, instead of making every excuss not too... I'm just trying to help you out in my own ways, if I didn't try, I couldn't call myself a Christian... But also, I don't expect you to change your whole aspect of life in such a short time, I'm just making you think, giving you what I know, which is the bible...

[SpiderMage]

Well, thanks for your opinions and thoughts guys, was appreciated ^-^

[Sarien]

Sarien, don't speak on the bible unless you can give scriptures from it... If you can't back up your claims with actual facts, then there is no point in referring to them, atleast about a source you aren't using...

And, didn't you have to change your ways to become what you are today? Be it to fit your attitude, to belong to a group of people, or if you just felt the need for one, it was a change... Change is needed sometimes, it's just what changes you accept into your life is what decides your fate...

I'm not going to get into Quotefest 3000 with you.
I'm assuming you're trying the deny it enough and eventually it'll be true.
The bible does advocate slavery, it does give guidelines for the treatment of slaves. The bible is chock full of brutality, and murder, and specifically gives killing your children as a punishment for such crimes not behaving the wishes of their parents, or dressing up in clothes that belong to the opposite gender. It was a very nice touch to say that if I can't back up my "claims with actual facts" , then I shouldn't even give my opinion.

You know what? Fuck you, toy soldier. Idiots just exactly like you, are a large chunk of the reason so many things in this world piss me off. You're all het up about what you would trust and who you think is right, that when I give my opinion to someone, that you were most likely offended by, your first choice is to tell me that I shouldn't "base my opinion towards others" whatever the fuck that means. How are we supposed to share information? SpiderMage ASKED for opinions.

Why do you find my advocating critical thinking to be so threatening to you?

Do you see, SpiderMage? Do you see now? Is this what you want to become? Is this the road you want to travel so bad that you give up your reasoning faculties to get there?

This coming Tuesday, I'll be 30 years old. What have I learned? Not much of a goddamned thing. Did I change to be who I am now from 20, 15, or 10 years ago? I sure did. But I didn't change it to fit into an ideal that belongs to someone else. I got here by growing as a person, experiencing things, and deciding things for my own. I determine my moral compass of what I believe to be wrong and right. I am in charge of my life, and I refuse to give up things I do believe in, just so I can fit into some cookie cutter mold.

My advice to you, SpiderMage, is just don't let religion ruin your ability to reason. If I were you, unless I had a first hand experience from God or Jesus or what have you that tells you otherwise, I wouldn't change a damn thing about my beliefs. After all, why give up who you are, just for what some other person says you should be?

[Stylez]

Why I said to give scriptures is because it will let everyone see it wasn't the word of God who said those things, but the laws of man (how ironic) that gave them... The bible is looked at for guidelines and as a historical reference...

Second, you don't know me... I hated church, more so than you... I hated christians, more so than you... I hated everything once... But then, I, myself, opened up the bible, read it, and understood it... I then did research to still try and neglect what I learned in the bible... I even went a little into other religions to see what they said... Everything that I've come to a conclusion on is formed through my own findings, but I'm not forcing that on you, I'm just telling you not to speak on something you can't prove... It makes you look like an idiot when someone who does, comes in, and proves you completely wrong... From what you said so far, it will eventually happen...

[Kolar]

You have to prove it to yourself... How can you come up with an opinion based on science and things of todays world, when it comes to religion?

What I believe, or come to believe through the course of my life is my own. I don't need to prove it, things I use are proven on fact and as we're speaking on broad terms here I don't think being speicific or asking for proof is needed.

You're taking everything I say out of context... You're trying to debate me on this when I'm just giving you some food for thought...

We're not debating. I'm just putting what I believe out there, you're trying to impress your ideas and feelings about the subject onto people because that's what your religion is. I find that wrong because you can not prove what you believe in and you're ask for proof against it when faced with the same idea. Even if I feel chrianity has it wrong, wouldn't it make sense when faced with another type of faith to be more open to it? if it's more tolerant and open? Isn't it enough to let people come to those "simple" conclusions for them selves? Even if that's not what you believe in?

And really, you can't debate me on this... This is a debate on religion, a foundation, so to speak... You don't have one... You have but your own opinion of life, which is the biggest risk you can take...

Two topics, two pathways, two very different things here Stylez. No one has all the peices in life but in death, maybe. Religion is a base for civilization, it provides stability for the masses but having an inquisitive mind, a scientific mind is not a sin. I see no risk in keeping my mind and eyes open to the world. I find it offensive that people can have such an intolerant nature to a passive, peaceful existances. This is not so much about religion as it is about faith, the big questions of our time ect.. I could also register a religion for 200$ right now, if you would like me to so we could have this talk.

I just simply told you to either know your facts or don't speculate on a subject you really have no right to participate in, you just make things more confusing for those who are trying to learn... It's like me talking about how it would feel to be raped in a rehabilitation clinic full of raped women, you just can't talk about things you have no clue about, other than a feeling or an assumption...

I know what I believe and what Critistians believe, I don't think you can disbar anyone from being involved here. We're all humans, we all think, believe and feel. Is that not the topic? I'm not speculating on what Cristians believe, I'm saying what I believe. Are you that afraid of defending yourself and your beliefs when no one is attacking you? I have every right to speculate about these questions, they're so important to our lives and we're all speculating and believing in something.

Instead, ask questions, learn things you seem to not understand fully, instead of making every excuss not too... I'm just trying to help you out in my own ways, if I didn't try, I couldn't call myself a Christian... But also, I don't expect you to change your whole aspect of life in such a short time, I'm just making you think, giving you what I know, which is the bible...

And this is what I find unappealing about you Stylez. Your ideas are not open, unchanging and they're not tolerant. I contemplate existance and ask questions everyday. I go about it in a different way then you do probably, neither it better.

[Sarien]

Why I said to give scriptures is because it will let everyone see it wasn't the word of God who said those things, but the laws of man (how ironic) that gave them... The bible is looked at for guidelines and as a historical reference...

And again, I'm not going to get into a quotefest. Why? Because I'm the one advocating critical thought. I'm the one that is saying "See for yourself". So if any person that is wondering just how wrong I am, decided to prove me wrong, and goes and looks up material, then all I know to say is... HELL YES! GOOD BOY. You -ROCK-.

Next, if you're saying that parts of the bible are "from god" and parts aren't. Then aren't you saying the exact same thing I am? To use your critical reasoning to decide the right things for the God you believe in, and then all the other crap?

Second, you don't know me.

And to be honest, I don't think I'd have very much fun getting to.

It makes you look like an idiot when someone who does, comes in, and proves you completely wrong... From what you said so far, it will eventually happen...

Please. Be the one. Make me look like a fool and prove me completely wrong.

[3Stripes]

My advice to you, SpiderMage, is just don't let religion ruin your ability to reason.

I 2nd that

[Squeezer]

I want to take a page from Liquid and start a serious thread, which in this case is this one here, so please take this rather seriously because I am looking for opinions and such.

Recently(couple months now or so) I accepted Christianity in my life, asked for forgiveness, trying to change my life for the better, etc etc. Have not visited Church yet, not sure if it's because 'm uneasy since the only times 've ever been to Church were against my desire to, or if 'm not comfortable with that step yet(I don't think I have enough faith and strength in myself to just walk into a Church and be like "hey how ya doin?"), though I have started reading the Bible, 5 chapters a day(try to anyway, sometimes I fall asleep before I do or I just am not in the mood to read) that my gf, Abigail got for me(she's Christian, hence why she got it). I keep doubting myself though, one thing I always talked with Abby about with is like "how do I pray, is there a certain way, what if 'm doing it wrong" etc etc, because to use a term heard widely in this game, I feel like a "newbie" to this path I wish to take.

Anyway, one thing that 'm kind of... I don't know, uncertain about is, 'm an artist as a few of you know, and I hate censorship, I am truly against people covering up works of art or movies because it has something to do with nudity or sex/sexuality. And I know a lot of Christians and most all religions are against nudity and sex/sexuality in any regard, especially if it's out in the open(art is what I mean mostly), which makes me think sometimes if I am doing something wrong. Also, I have never ever had a problem with nudity or sex/sexuality, while yes Abby and I are waiting for marriage I don't shield my eyes from nudity or porn, though I have felt the need to ask for understanding and forgiveness after watching porn, but not nudity... maybe 'm weird I don't know.

Guess 'm just trying to figure somethings out, I know there are Christians on this board, perhaps some Catholics too, so 'm looking for some answers that I perhaps can't find within myself or 'm not comfortable with asking people I know about(I do ask Abby though but 'd rather not be like "hey grandma I have a question for you"). I know I will prolly be flammed in this thread but oh well, price you pay I guess when looking for answers and opinions. But my main question is about how my feelings on art, specifically my own, and censorship should be, do they need to be changed or is it ok to still think like you used to? I used to also believe in love before sex, and 've loved a few people in my 22 years, but after having fell for Abby in this year and a half we've had I know that she's the only one whom I want to be with and I wish I hadn't done some of the things with other people before her, so that she really could have everything(won't go into detail about this).

EDIT:
Also, 've never had a problem with people or myself cursing, I just look at them as words, 've never told anyone to stop cussing or stopped myself from cussing... so any thoughts on that as well?

Well bro, I've taken 3 years of Catholic theology, and I just want to make you well known to this.

JESUS NEVER SAID ANYTHING BAD ABOUT NAKED PEOPLE!!!!

The denouncing of people doesn't start until Acts of the Apostles, which is after Jesus' death. But, if you believe heavily in the whole the bible is the word of God, then that doesn't matter. I personally put the most stock into what Jesus had to say, not what the Old Testament, or the letters are saying.

The problem with this is, when you view Porn, or a naked person, you are in a way, viewing them as an object rather than a person, and that can lead to baaaaaad roads. When you view someone as an object, and not as a valued person, you'll have no problems murdering, raping, and pretty much doing anything to them. This of course is an extreme, but I'm only telling you most Christians' defense against porn/nudity. Oh, and lest we forget, some of the most famous Christian artists, especially Michaelangelo Bonorate, sculpted, and painted nude scenes, using nude models, and they were paid by the church. If ever you feel guilty for using nudity in your art, just think that there's nudity in the Systine Chapel, one of the holiest buildings in existence.

As for your past Sex-Capades, the important thing is that you feel regret. You found love, and now you realize the error of your past ways. That's what Christianity is all about, discovering your mistakes, and asking a silent power to forgive you for your mistakes. You are heading down the right road.

On the topic of cursing, we had a kid ask our teacher (who is perhaps the most informed Christian man I have ever met in my life.) about if cursing was bad. He said that while cursing is a bad habit to get into, because it's rude and shows a bit of a lack of intellegence to not find other words, it's not a sin. The only word that was ever revealed to humans as not being able to be said is "God." And that is only a sin when used in the wrong context. So dont worry about the cussing thing. It's all good.

I'm glad to hear you've tried to turn you're life around mate, and this Abby girl seems like a keeper. Congrats.

Oh and btw Stylez, I've read the bible upwards of 30 times, try me please.

Show me where Jesus specifically says, "Those who are naked will go to hell."

Please, I need a good laugh.

[Stylez]

And again, I'm not going to get into a quotefest. Why? Because I'm the one advocating critical thought. I'm the one that is saying "See for yourself". So if any person that is wondering just how wrong I am, decided to prove me wrong, and goes and looks up material, then all I know to say is... HELL YES! GOOD BOY. You -ROCK-.

Next, if you're saying that parts of the bible are "from god" and parts aren't. Then aren't you saying the exact same thing I am? To use your critical reasoning to decide the right things for the God you believe in, and then all the other crap?


And to be honest, I don't think I'd have very much fun getting to.


Please. Be the one. Make me look like a fool and prove me completely wrong.

Are you a little slow? In your original post, you were referring to things from the bible, I just asked for you to give the scriptures of those quotes that you were trying to push onto people...

And I will prove you wrong... Buy a bible, look in it, it'll have red text and black text in it... The black text are words from others mouths, while the red text is words specifically spoken by God...

I've said nothing to you for you to get your panties all in a twist about, you act like I'm shoving all this down your throat... Really, I think you're trying to use me as an example for your rant... You can't base the actions that I do or make on millions of others... You're being so hypocritical in the things you say, you tell me not to do this or that, but at the same time, your doing the exact thing you're telling me not to do...

And on a last note, stop putting words in my mouth... You're 30 years old and have nothing to show for it but grief and turmoil, so in your own words, HELL YES! GOOD BOY. You -ROCK-.

[Stylez]

What I believe, or come to believe through the course of my life is my own. I don't need to prove it, things I use are proven on fact and as we're speaking on broad terms here I don't think being speicific or asking for proof is needed.

We're not debating. I'm just putting what I believe out there, you're trying to impress your ideas and feelings about the subject onto people because that's what your religion is. I find that wrong because you can not prove what you believe in and you're ask for proof against it when faced with the same idea. Even if I feel chrianity has it wrong, wouldn't it make sense when faced with another type of faith to be more open to it? if it's more tolerant and open? Isn't it enough to let people come to those "simple" conclusions for them selves? Even if that's not what you believe in?

Two topics, two pathways, two very different things here Stylez. No one has all the peices in life but in death, maybe. Religion is a base for civilization, it provides stability for the masses but having an inquisitive mind, a scientific mind is not a sin. I see no risk in keeping my mind and eyes open to the world. I find it offensive that people can have such an intolerant nature to a passive, peaceful existances. This is not so much about religion as it is about faith, the big questions of our time ect.. I could also register a religion for 200$ right now, if you would like me to so we could have this talk.

I know what I believe and what Critistians believe, I don't think you can disbar anyone from being involved here. We're all humans, we all think, believe and feel. Is that not the topic? I'm not speculating on what Cristians believe, I'm saying what I believe. Are you that afraid of defending yourself and your beliefs when no one is attacking you? I have every right to speculate about these questions, they're so important to our lives and we're all speculating and believing in something.

And this is what I find unappealing about you Stylez. Your ideas are not open, unchanging and they're not tolerant. I contemplate existance and ask questions everyday. I go about it in a different way then you do probably, neither it better.

I ask myself questions everyday, you're making me sound like I'm some repressed christian geek... Dude, I'm not a christian (at the moment), I don't attend church, but I know I'm not perfect and I have to work on that...

All I am saying to you people, that you're taking so offensively is to open a book and read it, that is all... How hard is this to follow?

But, you're still not showing why you believe in what you do, what source it came from, what thoughts went through your head while you formulated your opinion on these things, nothing... You're just making endless excusses and it's getting rather tiresome...