Reinquist died!

[genocidal]

Yeah I agree it's over. 2 things though.

1) I do apologize for offending you (if it did in any way), hopefully we're more clear on that issue now.
2) I demand an apology for being lumped into a category with Ezor and Tone (not really but I still think it's funny/fucked up you would compare me to them).

[Troll King]

I apologized in PM to him for offending him because I do care about that. Unfortunately his quick temper about issues of race prevented him from ever reading that. Read my posts, I never once said a racially disparaging term (and I made it clear in the first instance that I believed him to be stupid but specifically not because he was Mexican).
http://forums.trenchwars.org/showthread.php?t=20589
That's where he started getting on the defensive about issues of race. I think people who can't even tolerate hearing people being called black, Mexican, white, or whatever have serious problems - and I was poking fun at him in this thread for that.

As far as laughing at stereotypes I know I said that but I never made a single stereotype in this thread. Still, I completely disagree with you that shying away from stereotypes and not viewing them as something funny in some instances but DEFINITELY with limits even further perpetuates their harm than does laughing at them appropriately. Notice, appropriately. The fact I apologized to someone I have little respect for on an online board for offending him shows how much I do care about being non-offensive. You didn't give me any reasons why it perpetuates them, you just said that.

Don't blame someone for feeling defensive about issues of race. I don't think he was overreacting to IlyaZ's comment, and he wasn't overreacting to your comment here. If you truly do apologize, then your first paragraph here shows that you only did that because you felt you should but not because you're fully aware of what you did. I honestly believe that you weren't meaning it to be as bad as turned out to be, but once it's been received that way, then it's you who underestimated it. Don't try to turn it around so that it's his fault for feeling how he did. You might not have meant for it to, but it turned out that way.

As for the second paragraph, the key terms there are "definitely with limits". As you can see from this argument, those limits are difficult to define, and your limits were clearly different from J=T's. That's where your position fails. If you do want to apologize, it should be for crossing his limits, even though you don't feel that they crossed yours. And there's the key: it's his limits that matter, because if it crossed your limits, the you wouldn't have said it. If you apologize without understanding that then your apology is meaningless and, since you've been so adamant on using the term, defensive.

What exactly do you think you are apologizing for?

[genocidal]

Don't blame someone for feeling defensive about issues of race. I don't think he was overreacting to IlyaZ's comment, and he wasn't overreacting to your comment here. If you truly do apologize, then your first paragraph here shows that you only did that because you felt you should but not because you're fully aware of what you did. I honestly believe that you weren't meaning it to be as bad as turned out to be, but once it's been received that way, then it's you who underestimated it. Don't try to turn it around so that it's his fault for feeling how he did. You might not have meant for it to, but it turned out that way.

Well I thought I was done here, but this does require some explanation because you're trying to make it seem like I'm insensitive to what has been said and am only apologizing because I don't want to look like an ass. First all of, the apology was sent in PM so it wouldn't come to all of this - it was meant for him personally but as he didn't read it I posted about it here.

Secondly,l I do feel it was an overreaction in Ilyaz's thread but probably not one here. Ilyaz's case was why I was poking fun in the first place and I understand how that in itself could offend him and how it could be misconstrued. I meant it how it sounded and my apology was for offending him. I don't see how that is ingenuine at all. While I may not agree on the harshness of the insult I am concerned with not racially offending someone despite what my opinion on the facts may be.

As for the second paragraph, the key terms there are "definitely with limits". As you can see from this argument, those limits are difficult to define, and your limits were clearly different from J=T's. That's where your position fails. If you do want to apologize, it should be for crossing his limits, even though you don't feel that they crossed yours. And there's the key: it's his limits that matter, because if it crossed your limits, the you wouldn't have said it. If you apologize without understanding that then your apology is meaningless and, since you've been so adamant on using the term, defensive.

What exactly do you think you are apologizing for?

You're right, TK, the limits are hard to define. But I think J=T has come to realize that I wasn't being deliberately offensive but rather joking around. The fact that a realization has been met about the stupidity of a word prove my point that it's better not to completely evade the issue of race altogether. The apology is about nobody's limits. Clearly I don't think it's offensive and I don't think J=T thinks it is either now that the situation has been explained more in depth. Like I said, I apologized for offending him in my PM. So I guess you could say that that is respecting his limits but it's more to show that offensiveness in racism is unacceptable and a better understanding breaks down the offensiveness of it.

EDIT: I do apologize for my long-windedness on all matters in this thread but I don't think any matter I've posted on here deserves any less than what attention I gave it. I realize the discussion has been totally sidetracked but I do believe this tangential discussion is way more valuable that 90% of the other topics you'll read in General Discussion.

[Troll King]

There's a difference evading the issue of race and what happened here though. This wasn't a case of ignoring race but the opposite; you threw race into the issue. You're right, ignoring race isn't the way either, but that's not what I'm talking about. Your theory works as an approach on how to hold discourse when issues of race or racism do crop up. But if race isn't an issue, then you don't bring it up just for the sake of breaking it down. Your approach is like taking a step back if you also get to take two steps forward. You still make progress, I'll grant you that, but there are other ways to go forward without having to take a few steps back first.

[Ilya]

cool, my name is all over this thread

overnight celebrity what what

[genocidal]

I'll agree with your post that race should not be brought into issues for the fuck of it, ideally.

My original post was, admittedly, to get a rise out J=T because I thought his taking offense at Ilya's thread was ridiculous (and he was trying to get a rise out of me - in which he succeeded). While it wasn't particularly helpful at all I don't think it caused any real damage. And, like I said, the second post was more jokingly especially since there's nothing particularly racist about it - I just called him Mexican (and not even as a substitute for his actual name which would have been pretty racist). I agree there's nothing nice about saying what I did but it was made in a light-hearted manner after previous discussions of race.

I wasn't trying to randomly bring his race into a discussion of the judiciary to somehow refute what he was saying.