ITT we discuss the anthropological basis for revenge upon strangers

[Subjugation]

there must be an explanation for this phenomena.

why does the punishment of other people's violations of certain social norms give us pleasure? basically, are we seeing people with whom we have no relationship getting what the deserve, and it doesn't affect us in any direct way at all. why is it that we feel better for this display of justice?

i just don't understand how we evolved into receiving a chemical trigger of pleasure for something that has absolutely no direct connection with our genes or our social circle.

[Riesen]

Could you be more vague, please?

[ogron]

from an anthropological and evolutionary psychological perspective, it takes hundreds of generations for a trait to be passed on genetically until it becomes "mainstream", and since we've had access to media for about 3 generations that makes having a chemical trigger for such things an evolutionary impossibility.

[Subjugation]

Could you be more vague, please?

It may or may not be possible...

[Ashlee]

See, I have no idea what you're talking about

It may or may not be completely obvious

My mind glazed over after the first sentence

[Subjugation]

from an anthropological and evolutionary psychological perspective, it takes hundreds of generations for a trait to be passed on genetically until it becomes "mainstream", and since we've had access to media for about 3 generations that makes having a chemical trigger for such things an evolutionary impossibility.

Not necessarily. When you say 3 generations, I'm guessing you mean television. That is not including radio, which would push that back even further. When you consider newbspapers, even further back. What about the bible? That book is thousands of years old, and it is chock full of stories of revenge and justice upon strangers. However, television has definitely expanded our ability to give a shit about people who should be completely irrelevant to us.

It's not a question of whether there is a chemical trigger or not---it is obviously there. I'm asking HOW we evolved so it got there.

For example, revenge upon someone who harmed us or our family would best be explained because natural selection would favor us protecting our mates/territory/resources, as well as demonstrating our fitness to the opposite sex. But how would natural selection favor something that has nothing to do with us?

[Theif of Time]

Perhaps we just feel better seeing someone's bad deeds punished, because of sympathy for others who may have been harmed by their bad deeds.

[Vykromond]

you're approaching it from 100% the wrong angle; you're looking at the small picture and bringing some pseudoscientific tosh about genetics and chemical triggers in when you should be thinking about society and how it operates/reinforces itself on an individual psychological level

[Troll King]

You know how people always wonder why bad things happen to good people? This is the equal but opposite side of it.

It's about karma, really. What goes around, comes around. By seeing people who deserve it get punished, we think that those who deserve good things will also receive good in return. When you see examples of justice at work, then you'll feel more confident that the system might actually work. That provides a strong sense of relief. Part of it too is the sense that you yourself aren't being punished because you didn't do what they did wrong. That makes you feel that you are better than they are in that particular instance.

I wouldn't call what you're describing as "revenge". It shares similarities with revenge, but isn't, really. What you're describing is revenge, but without personal involvement, but the concept of revenge is based on some form of personal involvement.

[Subjugation]

you're approaching it from 100% the wrong angle; you're looking at the small picture and bringing some pseudoscientific tosh about genetics and chemical triggers in when you should be thinking about society and how it operates/reinforces itself on an individual psychological level

Actually, it's called evolutionary psychology, instead of pseudoscience.

However, I partly agree with the rest of what you said---it's a question of society and how it operates/reinforces itself on an individual's psychology. But that's not the whole story. Since natural selection influences our genetics, and our genetics influence our behavior, the question doesn't seem to be the psudeoscientific tosh that you make it. After all, last I checked, our society isn't too fond of murderers, but we still seem to have a few of those guys running around, despite our best efforts to influence their psychology through social pressure.

I sincerely hope you continue the dialogue.

[Subjugation]

When you see examples of justice at work, then you'll feel more confident that the system might actually work. That provides a strong sense of relief. Part of it too is the sense that you yourself aren't being punished because you didn't do what they did wrong. That makes you feel that you are better than they are in that particular instance.

I wouldn't call what you're describing as "revenge".

Yea, you're right. It's more justice than revenge.

And I would imagine that natural selection for humans would favor justice, since the concept of justice is basically a way of providing protection or safety from personal injury or death, injury or death to a mate, or loss of resources (money/property).

And also like you said, we might feel a sense of reassurance about our social status by seeing the incarceration of another person, which only reinforces our own level of fitness.

Yea, I can see how over we could develop a chemical trigger to feel a sense of satisfaction for it for those two reasons. As usual, you're the fking man, TK.

[K2Grey]

This might be a version of the just-world hypothesis, where humans like to think that the world is just and good people get rewarded and non-gooders are punished.

[Vykromond]

Actually, it's called evolutionary psychology, instead of pseudoscience.

touché. pardon me for the unwarranted flame.

Since natural selection influences our genetics, and our genetics influence our behavior, the question doesn't seem to be the psudeoscientific tosh that you make it.

there must be an explanation for this phenomena. (sic)

why does the punishment of other people's violations of certain social norms give us pleasure? basically, are we seeing people with whom we have no relationship getting what the deserve, and it doesn't affect us in any direct way at all. why is it that we feel better for this display of justice?

i just don't understand how we evolved into receiving a chemical trigger of pleasure for something that has absolutely no direct connection with our genes or our social circle.

here's the problem that made me say this was "pseudoscientific:" you cite evolutionary psychology, but i think evolutionary psychologists would generally disagree with your idea

After all, last I checked, our society isn't too fond of murderers, but we still seem to have a few of those guys running around, despite our best efforts to influence their psychology through social pressure.

not a strong point imho- murderers are an outlying case with abnormal psychology.

I sincerely hope you continue the dialogue.

only too happy to.

[Nockm]

Skimming through the replies, my idea is pretty simple.

It's good to see just punishemnt to strangers because it gives you the feeling that any similar injustice dealt to you would be rightly avenged somewhat. Just as if that stranger was not punished appropriately then you'd feel bad since you'd be wondering "What's to stop a stranger doing that to me?".

[ogron]

i think that vyk is right, this is more skinner's domain than evolutionary psychology.

imo a sense of justice isn't innate, its a learned behavior