WoW Expansion: To Boldly Suck Where No Game Has Sucked Before

[Vykromond]

Warriors outDPSing rogues is the way it should be. Rogues are meant for stealth, sapping, some fairly big damage, and that's about it. I would've hated to see what you thought of the beta, where MS had no cooldown. Warriors are just finally getting some of the damage back that they deserve (THEY'RE FRICKIN WARRIORS). Rogues complaining about DPS should do what they do best: go fly to Un'Goro and gank some lowbies and stop crying about not being able to do big DPS. My shadow priest is crying.

What utter nonsense. Which of those things ("stealth, sapping, some fairly big damage") has any relevance whatsoever to the high-end PVE game? Basically, what you're saying is that it's right that rogues should be an unusable PVE class after 60 and that warriors should be able to fill every raid slot that would be taken up by a rogue. That's moronic, sorry.

What people need to do is realize that maybe there's a role for your class that isn't just "huge DPS."

Except that, for rogues, there is no such role. Play one in MC/BWL/whatever other raiding situation and you'll see.

[SpiderMage]

this thread makes me feel good that I have no fucking clue what you guys are talking about

I think they are talking about a game... maybe... :fear:

[ConcreteSchlyrd]

My name's Vykromond, and I'm an angry rogue! GRRRRRRRRRR!

So what, you're saying that we should change the game around a class that already has a LOT of PvP advantages over EVERY OTHER CLASS? Please. Do you hear fire mages bitching about not being able to do big damage in MC? No, because people either learn to work AROUND it, or stop playing the game.

Is it a class balance fault that rogues are beginning to show that they can lag behind in damage behind a MS-specced warrior? Fuck no. Why? Because the only people who spec in MS anymore are people who play PvP 90% of the time and maybe fill spots as DPS in raids. Unless you're a prot spec warrior, most high-end raids don't want you. (We have ONE MS-specced warrior out of like 15 in the guild.) Do you hear MS-specced warriors crying foul? No.

One of my alts is a shadow priest. I'm mad about not being able to do huge damage too! ROAR! I'm gonna pound my fists on the table until someone makes an instance centered around shadow priests! YARRR! GRRRRRR!

Stop being "Angry Vykromond" for a second and realize that everyone else notices that each class has a small role to a larger good. What can rogues do in raids that others can't? Well, the first thing that comes to mind is running UBRS and sapping some of the guards. The second thing that comes to mind is their ability to stealth around and find objects in guarded areas (I'm thinking of the Lyceum). Yeah, these aren't super end-game instances, but it's an idea of how instances CAN be implemented to play off a certain class. So the ONLY TWO high-enders don't pander to rogues, so fucking what? Cry me a river, Justin Timberlake.

[NaiLed]

I understand basically none of this thread, but it's still fun to read you insulting each other :up:

[Vykromond]

My name's Vykromond, and I'm an angry rogue! GRRRRRRRRRR!

My name's Conc, and I'm on auto-pilot! I watched World of Roguecraft, and now all those times I got ganked in Stranglethorn Vale will be AVENGED! HOO-HAH!

So what, you're saying that we should change the game around a class that already has a LOT of PvP advantages over EVERY OTHER CLASS?

Look, I know World of Roguecraft Part II had some really classy Jesse Cook guitar pieces in it, but that doesn't make the crap in those movies true. Rogues don't have "a LOT of PvP advantages over EVERY OTHER CLASS," so try again. Unfavorable (worse than 50-50) matchups for Rogues include frost mages, warriors, properly played paladins, shamans, and post-1.8 hunters.

PS: Nobody is asking you to "change the game." In fact, rogues are asking the exact opposite- that the game stop changing so much so that they can preserve their tenuous role in raids. And you say "change the game" like it's such an unusual thing, even though the game got "changed" around Warriors with their talent patch and got "changed" around Warlocks and Hunters and Druids and...

Please. Do you hear fire mages bitching about not being able to do big damage in MC? No, because people either learn to work AROUND it, or stop playing the game.

Majordomo is a fight that necessitates the presence of mages in its mechanics. Garr's mechanics necessitate warlocks. Magmadar's necessitate hunters. These "DPS" classes have roles in raiding instances above and beyond that of simply doing DPS, which makes them both versatile and necessary- you can't just shove more warriors into their spots. Rogues? Trash 'em.

Is it a class balance fault that rogues are beginning to show that they can lag behind in damage behind a MS-specced warrior? Fuck no.

Well-played Fury warriors, too (we've tested this). Basically any warrior that isn't Prot spec.

Why? Because the only people who spec in MS anymore are people who play PvP 90% of the time and maybe fill spots as DPS in raids. Unless you're a prot spec warrior, most high-end raids don't want you. (We have ONE MS-specced warrior out of like 15 in the guild.)

If this is actually indicative of any guild other than yours (it certainly isn't of any guilds on my server), those guilds are doing something wrong. Considering no fight in MC requires more than 4 tanks (only one of which really needs to be Prot spec), and likewise for BWL (essentially, the better you get at the instance the fewer properly specced and geared tanks you need, although you definitely need more than one).

Do you hear MS-specced warriors crying foul? No.

Of course they're not crying foul if they're the best DPS class, lawl.

One of my alts is a shadow priest. I'm mad about not being able to do huge damage too! ROAR! I'm gonna pound my fists on the table until someone makes an instance centered around shadow priests! YARRR! GRRRRRR!

I like the noises, but I don't get it. You can do significant damage as a shadow priest (with Warlock support, Shadow-weaving, and the permission of your raid, you can do more than rogues can, safer), you can heal in a pinch if you pop out of Shadowform, and if there's a problem you can respec. Can rogues simply respec to be useful in the raid instances? Negative. If we're not DPSing, we might as well reroll.

Stop being "Angry Vykromond" for a second and realize that everyone else notices that each class has a small role to a larger good. What can rogues do in raids that others can't? Well, the first thing that comes to mind is running UBRS and sapping some of the guards.

loliolio. Apart from the fact that Sap can be duplicated in a billion other ways (Druids can sleep the dragons, guards can be polymorphed or Hunter-trapped) and thus isn't a very good way in which "rogues are special," only rogues specced to Improve Sap in the Subtlety tree can even do this. You know the funny thing about speccing to Improve Sap, which is a 3-pointer at 15 points in the Subtlety Tree? It fucks your DPS. More than it's fucked already, that is. You know there's absolutely no way rogues can compete with warriors in the blue instances for DPS, right? It's physically impossible. A warrior in greens and a combat rogue (maximum PVE DPS) in blues and purples will go toe-to-toe.

The second thing that comes to mind is their ability to stealth around and find objects in guarded areas (I'm thinking of the Lyceum).

Hooray! I can get me an Emperor's New Cape!

Yeah, these aren't super end-game instances

When you say "super end-game instances," you do mean "the instances that people spend a shitload of time in, as well as the ones that provide all the best items- epics- in the game, and the ones that blizzard hypes the most heavily, and have the most meaning to WoW because it's a PVE game," right? Okay, just wanted to make that clear. I forgot, why were rogues allowed to be completely useless in the most important part of the game again?

but it's an idea of how instances CAN be implemented to play off a certain class.

UBRS doesn't really pander to rogues, but OK. I personally thought you'd bring up DM Tribute, actually. In any case, this is all very nice- it shows that Rogues might be desired on BRD Emperor runs and DM Tribute. The former is an instance/encounter nobody does, and the latter is a blue-item instance nobody does more than once. Cool. What relevance does this have to the end game?

So the ONLY TWO high-enders don't pander to rogues, so fucking what?

I wish you ran Blizzard's live team. "Pshaw, the most-played class doesn't need to have a role in the end game." Nobody is asking for the high-end instances to "pander" to rogues, just that they let us be good at what we're good at. Making a "niche" encounter for Rogues, like the "niche" encounters for Hunters/Mages/Warlocks, is a very narrow and IMHO bad way to approach the problem, but it's something.

[ZeUs!!]

[ConcreteSchlyrd]

You know the thing about this argument? It's that I really couldn't give a shit less. I think arguments of these types are boring and generally fruitless. I can argue one side and you can argue the other all day long, but at the end of the day neither of us make a difference at all.

Don't like the way your rogue has ended up? You have three choices:

1) Keep posting with all the other "I want my class to be generally awesome" posters on the WoW boards and hope that Blizzard throws you a bone.

2) Re-roll. Yeah, I know there's a time investment involved, but if you like the game it's worth it, right? I've got three lvl 60's, all of which are at least pretty well equipped.

3) Stop playing. Just end your subscription. It'll give you more time to come to the TW boards and being generally sour on everything.

EDIT - Zeus is good times.

[ajaxee]

vyk, can you please take your rogue and farm some instances for me,, u know, with that whole "stealth to the end boss and get his phat lewt" thing,, cuz my priest is 670g short of his epic mount.

[EnFlAmE]

The game is NOT balanced. I used to play a rogue but i tought it wasn't realy a challenge anymore and switched to warlock. I play alliance and before the latest patch there was NO WAY i could kill a undead rogue with my lock if i didn't have the right pet out and even then my chance to kill him was realy low. And even with DC buffed every warlock till lvl 42 (wen you get DC if i remember correctly) is pretty much dead meat for rogue's. On the other hand, in group pvp i pretty much kick major ass. So i guess thats balance according to blizzard. -_-

[Vykromond]

You know the thing about this argument? It's that I really couldn't give a shit less. I think arguments of these types are boring and generally fruitless. I can argue one side and you can argue the other all day long, but at the end of the day neither of us make a difference at all.

You're the one who said it was balanced, not me. Don't make a contentious statement if you're just going to take the "i'm too cool for this discussion" backdoor out of it.

3) Stop playing. Just end your subscription. It'll give you more time to come to the TW boards and being generally sour on everything.

Fuck you too, dude.

vyk, can you please take your rogue and farm some instances for me,, u know, with that whole "stealth to the end boss and get his phat lewt" thing,, cuz my priest is 670g short of his epic mount.

No, I can't. They patched instance farming out of the game by making it so that you can only do 5 instances per hour. Sorry =\

edit: quote boxes messed up

[Vihta]

Well, dunno what kinda gear your ppl got but in our raids rogues are at the top of the dmgmeter on pretty much every fight (and we have a fury specced Grand Marshal warrior with Thunderfury in the guild). Problem with dps warrior's is that unless the fight is trivial aggrowise they can't do as much dps as they could where as a rogue can lower their aggro with Feint or just wipe it every 5 mins with Vanish. I guess being the best single target dps class just ain't enough for rogues *shrug*.

Anyways Conc check out my pimp gnome warrior profile

and here is a bwl video one of our member made, kinda bad quality in some places but it's fairly long (and big). Still have nef to kill, gay dragonid zerg is still holding us.

[ConcreteSchlyrd]

Dude, nicely done! No tier 2 helm, though? Slacker.

The bindings for Thunderfury just dropped tonight for the first time for BB. Ox would've gotten them, but stepped aside for some other warrior to go on the raid.

He was slightly less than happy.

[Vykromond]

Both bindings in one run?

[ConcreteSchlyrd]

My bad--I totally made it sound like both dropped. Reality: the right half (off Garr) were the only ones that dropped. Just curious to the both of you... how long did it take for someone in your guild to get Thunderfury (and how often are you raiding MC--how many days does it take you to finish it?)

[Vykromond]

My guild just folded recently (in the last week or so), actually. The leader left for real-life concerns. We were clearing MC in about 5 hours, switching over from a two-day schedule to a one-day schedule just before the end (we were never as elite as Vihta's outfit, because we started a lot later for one thing).

Never did get TF, although we had both Bindings and were working on the ele.

My character is completely displaced, now- I'm not actually sure what I'm going to do at this point, considering switching over to SC full-time or one of the other servers I play. I still have real-life friends here, but we're in a guild that is just starting MC and I don't feel like starting over. The other end-game guilds on my server are full of fucking tools.

How's BB doing? I haven't dropped by the forums in a while, but I think Anon told me you guys are almost done with Rag?

PS: Now this is what we call a horrendous waste of time: