Abortion

[froedrick]

No, morality is irrational. It involves acting on things you "feel" instead of things you thought through, and these things you "feel" can be shown to be completely illogical, so it's really the definition of irrationality.

Feelings can be logical.


p.s. you're wrong

[Lucon]

Feelings can be logical.


p.s. you're wrong

Yes, they can, but the feeling of morality can be shown to be illogical. I mean, a feeling like hunger is logical in a sense, because it tells you to eat and otherwise you'll die. That's what you mean, right?

[Troll King]

Okay, Troll King, you normally make pretty good arguments, but just because someone, somewhere, has a viewpoint, doesn't mean that it has any validity, or that it should be treated as such. And logic isn't subjective. No matter who adds 2 and 2 together, it won't equal 3, and if they say it does, they're wrong.

People might have reasons to do something, though you may not have those same reasons. You cannot apply your logic to his choice in that position because you are working under a different set of conditions. Your logic is based on all else being equal and that's where it fails you; all else might not be equal.

And next time, don't be so condescending to begin a post with "you normally make pretty good arguments".

[froedrick]

Yes, they can, but the feeling of morality can be shown to be illogical. I mean, a feeling like hunger is logical in a sense, because it tells you to eat and otherwise you'll die. That's what you mean, right?

No, I feel compassion for someone starving, thus me making the decision rationally to help them.

[Lucon]

People might have reasons to do something, though you may not have those same reasons. You cannot apply your logic to his choice in that position because you are working under a different set of conditions. Your logic is based on all else being equal and that's where it fails you; all else might not be equal.

And next time, don't be so condescending to begin a post with "you normally make pretty good arguments".

Logic is logic. Those people's reasons can be irrational. For instance, someone could lead a campaign against public schools for teaching that 2+2 is 3 even when it isn't. That's an overstated and simple example, but it shows what I mean. And what do you mean by "All else being equal?"

[Lucon]

No, I feel compassion for someone starving, thus me making the decision rationally to help them.

And yet it's not rational unless you're conciously doing it for the good feeling it gives YOU.

[syzygy]

logic is logic, and morality is morality. keep your logic out of our morality.

[froedrick]

And yet it's not rational unless you're conciously doing it for the good feeling it gives YOU.

Just because you think only of yourself doens't mean that I do.

[Lucon]

logic is logic, and morality is morality. keep your logic out of our morality.

I'm going to have to quote "Keep your logic out of our morality." It so perfectly shows how illogical morality is. And seriously, it is.

[syzygy]

Lucon, what you don't seem to grasp is that logic has nothing to do with morality. that is the reason morality is neither logical nor illogical, rational nor irrational.

this is almost parallel to the argument between the heart and the brain. your side says the brain controls the heart; our side says the heart keeps the brain alive. and in fact, without one, the other has no right to exist. in that case, they coexist with a great effect on one another. in our case, they coexist with no effect on one another.

[Lucon]

Lucon, what you don't seem to grasp is that logic has nothing to do with morality. that is the reason morality is neither logical nor illogical, rational nor irrational.

this is almost parallel to the argument between the heart and the brain. your side says the brain controls the heart; our side says the heart keeps the brain alive. and in fact, without one, the other has no right to exist. in that case, they coexist with a great effect on one another. in our case, they coexist with no effect on one another.

Now you sound like the protagonist from a bad children's movie.

And no, morality is not "neither rational nor irrational." It's just irrational.

[syzygy]

i'll ignore the 'protagonist' comment, only because i have no idea where your mind is. but, like i said:

...what you don't seem to grasp...

[Lucon]

i'll ignore the 'protagonist' comment, only because i have no idea where your mind is. but, like i said:

Morality is mysticism. There's nothing that I don't grasp, the person failing to grasp here is you.

[Troll King]

Logic is logic. Those people's reasons can be irrational. For instance, someone could lead a campaign against public schools for teaching that 2+2 is 3 even when it isn't. That's an overstated and simple example, but it shows what I mean. And what do you mean by "All else being equal?"

My point is that people can have different reasons that shape their decisions in any given situation. You have a set of reasons that allow you to make a rational decision. Someone else in the same situation may have reasons of his own that are equally valid though differ from yours. They allow him to make a decision that is also different from yours. You can't sit back and call them irrational because they are working with a different set of circumstances.

Rationality is using the knowledge that you have to make a decision. But if someone has knowledge that differs from yours then he will make a different decision. Just because it differs from your result doesn't mean it's any less rational.

Your 2+2 analogy is flawed, not because it's simplistic but because it's based on there being one and only one "true" solution. The situation we're looking isn't a matter of there being a universal truth.

[syzygy]

Morality is mysticism.

then why are you looking to define it? morality is beyond your sight; anything you say regarding it is void because you don't understand it.