The Capital Punishment

[Galleleo]

I am doing 2 studies at the same time at one of the best Uni's in my country ratty, so plz.. don't talk about what you dont know.

Actually bot, I do consider it the same. There is nothing different about you or me killing someone then there is about the "goverment" killing someone. You are taking a mans/womans life. And I do consider it to be the same.

What I dislike alot about the Netherlands is our sentence structure. A murderer over here, can get 18 years MAX and only has to serve 2/3 of his time, everyone only has to serve 2/3 of this time. In other words you can kill someone here and be out in 12 years. Now we do also have the Life setence, but it's rarely used, tho lately it has been getting used more often, but still aslong as you didn't go a murder spree or did something really horrible, you have like a 95% chance of getting out in 12 years. I dislike this, I would want to see our sentences go way up, or atleast keep people for the time they are sentenced and not only 2/3rd of the time.

But that a side, ari and bot make good points.. America is a country that is about the freedom and fighter for human rights, and still you do something like that, it's questionable. But I didn't want to make this an America bashing thread, but more a general thread about the Death Penalty.

[geekbot]

A governement is expected to: punish lawbreakers including jailing, declare war/defend a country (including drafting citizens), impose taxes, etc. These aren't really things individuals can do. I can't jail someone who has wronged me- I have to bring it to the justice system. I can't retailate for murder. I depend on my government to protect me and to grant me justice. That's how it's supposed to work, anyway.

Checks and balances...by the people for the people....more money more power....blood for oil....that kind of thing.

[DoTheFandango]

If they kill people and admit to doing it out of hate or for no good reason, then kill them.

[Darkmoor]

The death penalty should be in a much wider use than it is now.

[Galleleo]

But bot, you (as a goverment) are still taking people's lives that are not directly threating you.. in a war ok, the others wanna shoot you too, so you better shoot them first.

But this is not a war, they commited a crime, but they are not out to kill out your whole country, locking them up would suffice to stopping what they are doing. So no, I still don't consider it much different.

Ow, and for the people who brought the argument that you would save money with the Death Penalty because it would be cheaper then locking them up for life, from my earlier post:

Opponents of the death penalty point out that capital cases usually cost more than life imprisonment due to the extra costs of the courts such as appeals and extra supervisions.

So, in total the Death penalty actually costs more.

[Broly]

out with the death penalty

[DoTheFandango]

Lifetime in Norway is 21 years, and a year in prison isn't a regular year, and you get to get out earlier when you're nice.

That first part doesn't even make sense. Why would you sentence someone to Life and have them stay for only 21 years. What if they were sentenced for 22 years?

[Liquid Blue]

Who gives a shit.

This fucking arguement has been strungout for years and wont stop until everyone is dead.

So don't start it here, don't fucking bring this shit up.

Don't bring these negative ass posts into topics that have a chance to go somewhere. If you don't want to talk about something in a topic, leave it and go back to bitching with ratty or calling Pandagirl a whore, you're seriously not doing a damn thing but being negative when you post dribble like this.

Same here. Cost is not a factor, you can't justify murder because you don't want to spend the money to lock people away or rehabilitate them.

I agree, although it's supposed to cost alot (too damn much) to kill someone in the US, anyway.

This fact alone should make every american ashamed, the sole fact that america appears on that list goes against everything into wich your regime is based upon, the same regime for wich countless americans died in bloody battle fields so that america could be a country of free though and free will, and not a place in wich someone can be executed in the name of a false sense of justice; turning the american judicial system into a mockery of what it was intended to be...

A set number of people that have been killed, that could not have been prevented or their status changed by myself in any way, shape or form, is and never will be something that I will be ashamed of. Instead of getting on a high horse and spouting the word regime over and over like a kid with tourette syndrome after watching Sesame street, please realize that the citizens of America are not responsible for every single act done in the country, nor are we liable. Some things yes, but the idiotic shit that you and 55 other non-Americans on the intraweb like to talk about, no.

There's no need to go over the " you're country has just as many skeletons in the closet, it's just not as popular to talk about it" bullet points, but suffice to say that it's quite easy to give your opinion about the death penalty, without using this topic as another haven for anti-american comments.

These aren't really things individuals can do. I can't jail someone who has wronged me- I have to bring it to the justice system. I can't retailate for murder. I depend on my government to protect me and to grant me justice. That's how it's supposed to work, anyway.

Hear hear.

If they kill people and admit to doing it out of hate or for no good reason, then kill them.

No. Not only will that type of logic fail in a court of law, but it's very rare when someone says that they just did it for no good reason. You said out of hate, hate because why? A father kills the guy who raped his daughter and he hates him, does that mean the father dies as well? Who are you to judge these things, who are you to decide what is a good reason and what isn't? It's quite easy to throw around blame and say this and that when you're behind a monitor, but how about if a real life was in your hands?


--

I don't agree with the death penalty. Despite there being numerous amounts of evidence, there have still been innocent people killed- their innocence only found out after they are dead. I can't say I'm to fond of the current (American) prison system either though, so both options aren't too hot in my opinion. On the issues of rehabilitation and reason for jailtime, I don't think time divided out is well-spent, so to speak. But on the subject of the death penalty, I don't really see what's good it's done- 5 horrible horrible people being taken away from this earth isn't worth one wrongly accused man's death.

[DoTheFandango]

These topics have never gotten anywhere before, why would they start now?

Seriously, you guys got to chill about this. A forum topic about something is not going to change anyones views. Especially if you dont have any.

[Liquid Blue]

No, you have to chill about bitching in every other topic that is on a subject discussed before. If you don't think it's going to get anywhere, fine- shut the hell up and keep out of it. You're definitely not saying anything new or contributing when you post stuff like " OMG STFU DON'T BRING THIS UP AGAIN I MEAN IT FUCK SHIT ".

[Galleleo]

Actually, I am interested in reading peoples well argued opinions, and I might change my opininon, but atleast I am interested in knowing what other people think on the situation. I always try to gain information from multiple sources as well as different views on subjects from different kind of people, on subject that I am interested in. And sometimes it does change my opinion, or parts about my opininon.

And lb, I wouldn't say Arikel is just another I hate america lawl kind of person, I mean, she hasn't done anything in the other threads really, so portraying her as one from that 1 post is kind of wrong IMO.

Obvious to say, no system is perfect, no system is flawless and not everyone will ever agree to what system to use. But on the other hand it would seem like a harsh system to use, the death penalty, when it's a fact that the whole justice system by far is flawed and that there are always gonna be innocent people getting locked up no matter how hard you try. And atleast you can rectify it if someone is still alive, sure he might have lost 20 years of his life, and yes that sucks, etc. but you wouldn't have died for something you didn't do. But on the other hand, people that rape and have killing spree's and what not... do they really deserve to live?

[Arikel]

A set number of people that have been killed, that could not have been prevented or their status changed by myself in any way, shape or form, is and never will be something that I will be ashamed of.

Yes it is!
First because by condemning someone to death penlty is denyinng the chance for a change in their way, and second because if you admit you can't change the way of your inmates then clearly your judicial system is in dire need to be fyxed, it's not the judicial system who decides if you are able to change or not, and cearly it's decisions should not be based on that.

Remember Tookie, a murderer in cold blood that after being in jail and showing regret he changed is life completely, Becoming a children books writter and being the nominee for 4 consecutive years for the nobel prize, did your judicial system backed in the decision? No! Tookie is dead even though he was a diferent men then he was when he got arrested.

Instead of getting on a high horse and spouting the word regime over and over like a kid with tourette syndrome after watching Sesame street, please realize that the citizens of America are not responsible for every single act done in the country, nor are we liable. Some things yes, but the idiotic shit that you and 55 other non-Americans on the intraweb like to talk about, no.

You pathetic little brat, the word "regime" is not necessarilly conoted to a dictatorship like you wanted to try to make it sound in my post, next time you start yelling "american hater" on your high horse like a kid with tourette syndrome after watching Sesame Street make sure you do it in the right way and against someone with who you can actually get down on that level of talking, now stop being a child and stop trying to change the message in my post.

About the second part, yes if you are american you are responsible of what your country does, citisenship works the other way around to, not only are the US responsible for what you do, so it has the right to judge you, but you to are responsible for what the "US" do. If your country is a free country "as i know it is" you always have the right to change it in the way that most suits your interests, at the light of every other american interests, democracy makes sure everyone is responsible for is country.

There's no need to go over the " you're country has just as many skeletons in the closet, it's just not as popular to talk about it" bullet points, but suffice to say that it's quite easy to give your opinion about the death penalty, without using this topic as another haven for anti-american comments.

Please... get over it!!
And start doing something about what you think wrongh in your country.
If someone criticises your countrie's policies and judicial system it does not necessarily means it is anti american, AND EVEN IF IT WAS, it does not necessarilly reduces it's validity and dimishes it's arguments in any way.
Now try to contribute something more other then pushing the old "american hater flag" because i think you can do much better then that, if not maybe i was wrongh all this time...

[Liquid Blue]

Yes it is!
First because by condemning someone to death penlty is denyinng the chance for a change in their way, and second because if you admit you can't change the way of your inmates then clearly your judicial system is in dire need to be fyxed, it's not the judicial system who decides if you are able to change or not, and cearly it's decisions should not be based on that.

No, it's not something I'll ever be ashamed of, how are you going to try and tell me I will be? I (just like 99% of the American population) cannot be held responsible for every single death or mishap of justice that is done in my country, just like you cannot be held responsible for every bad thing that happens in your country. Alot of things need to be " fyxed" in the world, so please don't try and tell me which has priority over another, be it the panel judging whether a person has been rehabilitated, or the judges handing out the sentences in the first place.

Remember Tookie, a murderer in cold blood that after being in jail and showing regret he changed is life completely, Becoming a children books writter and being the nominee for 4 consecutive years for the nobel prize, did your judicial system backed in the decision? No! Tookie is dead even though he was a diferent men then he was when he got arrested.

Yes I remember Tookie, and there are two sides of every coin. Being one of the co-founders of one of the biggest gangs in Cali is not going to help anyone's case in regards for parole or at the very least, a pardon. Whether he was guilty of killing those people all those years ago is null as of now, thanks to the decision of his govenor. I already said I don't agree with the death penalty, so obviously I don't agree with the thought of him being killed, but you aren't one of the people to say he was a different man than he was when he got arrested. No matter how many peace nominations he's had, however many childrens books he has written, you didn't know him before he was sent to jail and I have a good hunch you never met the man after he went to jail. Do I think he regretted those murders after spending time in jail, if he actually did them ? Maybe. Do I think he was ready for parole? No idea, that's up to the panel to decide. I would have preferred at least giving him life, but once again I had no sway in that decision, along with many many other americans.

You pathetic little brat, the word "regime" is not necessarilly conoted to a dictatorship like you wanted to try to make it sound in my post, next time you start yelling "american hater"

No, I'm not pathetic and I'm not a little brat. You talk about how no other democratic regime is on the list, and then decide to declare that every American should feel ashamed because of this fact, and because of the fact that America is on the list. After your absurd notion that I should feel ashamed for something I have no control over, you decide to bitch and moan with a guilt trip about how so many have lost their lives for our freedom and false sense of justice and other boo-hoo violin bullshit. I never said you were an American hater, to clarify I called you an idiot with a keyboard that got an enflamed sense of self-righteousness that decided to spew anti-american comments where they weren't needed.



[quote\
[on your high horse like a kid with tourette syndrome after watching Sesame Street make sure you do it in the right way and against someone with who you can actually get down on that level of talking, now stop being a child and stop trying to change the message in my post.[/quote]

A, don't use my own insults when you're trying to reply to me. Your lack of originality was shown with the hater-aide drooling down the side of your mouth when you rant on about America, we don't need to see it again when you're trying to lash back at anyone. I'm sorry I don't want to get "down to your level", the message in your post didn't need changing, it was recognized for what it was (anti-american comments, lawl yes plz), and called out on.

About the second part, yes if you are american you are responsible of what your country does, citisenship works the other way around to, not only are the US responsible for what you do, so it has the right to judge you, but you to are responsible for what the "US" do.

Bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit. What country are you from? Save me some time and google some dirty shit from your country that I can call you responsible for as well. I'm not responsible for what the government does in any way outside of who I elect as the representatives- I can protest a law or action they might do, but they don't call me up in the middle of the night and say " Hey LB, is this cool with you? I don't want to piss you off bro".

If your country is a free country "as i know it is" you always have the right to change it in the way that most suits your interests, at the light of every other american interests, democracy makes sure everyone is responsible for is country.

Wrong, democracy is supposed to be a government by the people, usually taken care of through elected reps. These elected officals (their job, mind you), is to decide what is good for the country, and good for it's people. There are far too many issues for the common folk to watch out over and take care of personally, which is partly why we elect these officials in the first place. Their responsibilty is to not get out of hand with the power given them, and to try and keep people as safe as possible. Just because you disagree with their decisions on the death penalty and "justice", doesn't mean that it is wrong in their eyes. I can't speak for the officials or even the people who decided the death penalty and it's various points, but I can tell you that most looked at the facts, and did their job to the best of their ability. Sure there are shankers here and there, but that's the case everywhere. All we can ask as a democracy, is that the elected officials use their best judgement.

Please... get over it!!
And start doing something about what you think wrongh in your country.
If someone criticises your countrie's policies and judicial system it does not necessarily means it is anti american, AND EVEN IF IT WAS, it does not necessarilly reduces it's validity and dimishes it's arguments in any way.
Now try to contribute something more other then pushing the old "american hater flag" because i think you can do much better then that, if not maybe i was wrongh all this time...

Please get off your high horse and start doing something with your country! Like I told DTF, it's oh so easy to make a speech on an internet forum talking about standing up and making a difference, but how much are you doing on your end? What will you do after you read this post, what will you do this weekend, what will you do later this month? There's always something that could be fixed in all countries- trash on the ground, soup kitchens and plenty of other places that welcome voluneteers with open arms. Unless you're running from shelter to shelter, helping the sick, picking up the trash in your neighborhoo[b]s[/s] weekly, don't even begin to tell me what I can do to improve anything over here. Focus on your shit (I know it's easier to look at America), don't start wagging any fingers in our direction.

[Arikel]

No, it's not something I'll ever be ashamed of, how are you going to try and tell me I will be? I (just like 99% of the American population) cannot be held responsible for every single death or mishap of justice that is done in my country, just like you cannot be held responsible for every bad thing that happens in your country. Alot of things need to be " fyxed" in the world, so please don't try and tell me which has priority over another, be it the panel judging whether a person has been rehabilitated, or the judges handing out the sentences in the first place.

If something is wrongh in my country i fell ashamed for it, because being part of it means i have "moral" responsability on it. For example if some Portuguese started riots in the World Cup in German i would feel ashamed because of that... just as if my country was a death penalty supporter i would feel ashamed AND responsible if i just sit down and let the situation continue unchanged, and yes i signed the petition for the release on Tookie and i contribute to the International Amnesty if that was what you were asking.

No, I'm not pathetic and I'm not a little brat. You talk about how no other democratic regime is on the list, and then decide to declare that every American should feel ashamed because of this fact, and because of the fact that America is on the list. After your absurd notion that I should feel ashamed for something I have no control over, you decide to bitch and moan with a guilt trip about how so many have lost their lives for our freedom and false sense of justice and other boo-hoo violin bullshit. I never said you were an American hater, to clarify I called you an idiot with a keyboard that got an enflamed sense of self-righteousness that decided to spew anti-american comments where they weren't needed

You seem to contradict yourself in that sentence.
You resort once again to insults to show your point of view, no sry i wont bother to awnser your pathetic excuse for an insult and no! i wont go down to your level. If you just get on your conformist side that you can't change anything so you are deemed inocent you are going to have lots of problems in your future life, just a piece of warning and a good advice!!

A, don't use my own insults when you're trying to reply to me. Your lack of originality was shown with the hater-aide drooling down the side of your mouth when you rant on about America, we don't need to see it again when you're trying to lash back at anyone. I'm sorry I don't want to get "down to your level", the message in your post didn't need changing, it was recognized for what it was (anti-american comments, lawl yes plz), and called out on.

I see you resort to insults to bring your point up. I don't need originality simply because i don't intend to insult no one in a 2d spaceship internet forum, civilised persons dont need to use insults in a discussion, it is rude and shows how desperate you are to try to get to your point while at the same time you have no more arguments. And no i wont go down to your level!
And the message in my post was very clear! And yes it was a critic against the US! And no the word regime does not have the use you tryed to say it has!!

One of the things that amazes me the most is the lack of dignity that the said country of freedom has when it comes to the Death penalty issue.
If you look at that list you will not find any country with a solid democratic regime as the US, and just by being on that list the US seems to be on pair with dictatorial regimes when it comes to such an important issue as this one. This fact alone should make every american ashamed, the sole fact that america appears on that list goes against everything into wich your regime is based upon, the same regime for wich countless americans died in bloody battle fields so that america could be a country of free though and free will, and not a place in wich someone can be executed in the name of a false sense of justice; turning the american judicial system into a mockery of what it was intended to be...

Bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit. What country are you from? Save me some time and google some dirty shit from your country that I can call you responsible for as well. I'm not responsible for what the government does in any way outside of who I elect as the representatives- I can protest a law or action they might do, but they don't call me up in the middle of the night and say " Hey LB, is this cool with you? I don't want to piss you off bro".

Once again you distort what i tryed to tell you. Belonging to a country is not just electing a couple of guys to some jobs once every few years, it's being responsible for those choices and awser to them, yes you can say that in first place the ones responsible for those decisions are the ones you elected but ultimatelly its up to YOU a responsible american citizen. When a country gets sanctioned by the UN for example the main responsibles might be the ones leading the country but one of it's intentions is to promote "citizenship mobility" at a lack of better term. If being a citizen does not confer you power to change then democracy failed.

Wrong, democracy is supposed to be a government by the people, usually taken care of through elected reps. These elected officals (their job, mind you), is to decide what is good for the country, and good for it's people. There are far too many issues for the common folk to watch out over and take care of personally, which is partly why we elect these officials in the first place. Their responsibilty is to not get out of hand with the power given them, and to try and keep people as safe as possible. Just because you disagree with their decisions on the death penalty and "justice", doesn't mean that it is wrong in their eyes. I can't speak for the officials or even the people who decided the death penalty and it's various points, but I can tell you that most looked at the facts, and did their job to the best of their ability. Sure there are shankers here and there, but that's the case everywhere. All we can ask as a democracy, is that the elected officials use their best judgement.

Wrongh again!!
YOU must ask much more then that.
If the representatives don't do their best, or if their best is not enough then they must leave.

Please get off your high horse and start doing something with your country! Like I told DTF, it's oh so easy to make a speech on an internet forum talking about standing up and making a difference, but how much are you doing on your end? What will you do after you read this post, what will you do this weekend, what will you do later this month? There's always something that could be fixed in all countries- trash on the ground, soup kitchens and plenty of other places that welcome voluneteers with open arms. Unless you're running from shelter to shelter, helping the sick, picking up the trash in your neighborhoo[b]s[/s] weekly, don't even begin to tell me what I can do to improve anything over here. Focus on your shit (I know it's easier to look at America), don't start wagging any fingers in our direction.

Well in my own end!! let's see, about death penalty, i contribute to International Amnesty and i activelly seek signatures among my friends and colegues to help them! seems small but it's a start. About my own country?? well im a member of party in my country "youth member" and i intend to do something about it. About misery in my country? yes i've worked 3 times as a volunteer helping the most needed by gathering resources for them and asking for donations! About killing animals for using their skin and fur in clothes?? yes i already showed up on 3 huge gatherings to manifest our unaproval about that fact. On top of that i already appeared on 4 gatherings at the education minister door in order to change the policy on education and some of it's laws WITH SUCCESS. I showed up and manifested against the treatment that our government gave to the boat "woman on waves" a boat that made assisted abortions on international waters, our government didn't allowed it's entrances in portuguese waters violating the european laws, i was present and manifested about that decision, "a decision that our government took from wich i am ashamed as portuguese" i also worked on the sensibilization campagne when we managed to get a referendum about the abortion issue. I'm an active member of my students assotiation in my university and i strive for it to become better, all of this and many more things i've done.

If i can do more?? YES i surelly know i can do MUCH more and i will never cease to do what i think is best and wont cease to fight for the betterment of my country. And even if i hadn't done nothing, like Father António Vieira used to say: "Do as i say not as i do". or something roughly translated as that...

[Liquid Blue]

If something is wrongh in my country i fell ashamed for it, because being part of it means i have "moral" responsability on it. For example if some Portuguese started riots in the World Cup in German i would feel ashamed because of that... just as if my country was a death penalty supporter i would feel ashamed AND responsible if i just sit down and let the situation continue unchanged, and yes i signed the petition for the release on Tookie and i contribute to the International Amnesty if that was what you were asking.

If you feel ashamed for it, and that's the reason you do, fine- just don't try to use that same method of reasoning with other people, and try to lecture them with that frame of mind. Just because you feel ashamed about one thing doesn't mean someone else in your country or out of it will feel the same, everyone is different. On the subject of Tookie, signing a petition is not the same as meeting him so no, it's not what I was talking about.

You seem to contradict yourself in that sentence.
You resort once again to insults to show your point of view, no sry i wont ~..

I didn't have to resort to insults in that post or the post before, but if you don't want to think about people not feeling guilty over something they cannot control, that's fine. I desrcibed you as another internet bellringer in a much less harsher tone in my first post, but that flew over your head so I had to break it down for you. Be insulted or don't let it bother you, whatever works.

I see you resort to insults to bring your point up. I don't need originality simply because i don't intend to insult no one in a 2d spaceship internet forum, civilised persons dont need to use insults in a discussion,~..

My points need no introduction, your audacity to tell an entire group of people to feel ashamed for something brought negativity right at you. I'm never negative in these type of discussions (like you, I don't mind a mature discussion here) towards a person unless they give me a reason to be, and the attitude you displayed in your post also gave you the reply that you found. You don't need originality here, nor do we need to hear about how bad you think the American justice system is. That's what the message of your post was, I didn't need to disort anything or throw 85 names at you to make it any less or more clear.

Belonging to a country is not just electing a couple of guys to some jobs once every few years, it's being responsible for those choices and awser to them~..

Being responsible for those choices and answering to them. Is that supposed to be my job, or the elected officials? With the few people I've been able to vote for, I have looked at the pros and cons of each candidate, instead of voting blindly or not voting at all, like too many of my peers. With the options given to me, I vote in what I think is the best choice.

Sadly, majority rules, and not enough people in my age range are voting. So tell me, how am I responsible when I vote for a person and his opponent gets put in office? How am I responsible when I vote for a law change and it doesn't go through?

The level of awareness on a number of subjects is higher than ever and yet so is the level apathy. You try to tell me it's up to myself as a responsible citizen, but signing 80 petitions and going to rallies won't do a thing if not enough people are voting to make these changes.

Wrongh again!!
YOU must ask much more then that.
If the representatives don't do their best, or if their best is not enough then they must leave.

How old are you? Do you know how laws are passed? Life is never as simple as everyone would like it to be, it's not always the fault of your states Rep. because a bill passes or doesn't pass. What if a rep. does his best, tries his hardest and the majority still wants to do the opposite. That rep should lose his job? The others should lose their jobs? Good luck with trying to get them all out of office. That's going to take lots of angry letters, hundreds, maybe thousands of angry voters, elections to replace said officials, reputable people with the track record and common sense to replace the bad officials, money for campaigning, etc etc.

If i can do more?? YES i surelly know i can do MUCH more and i will never cease to do what i think is best and wont cease to fight for the betterment of my country~..

You've gone to 4 gatherings and volunteered 3 times. Signed a few petitions, and are apart of a youth member group. Congratulations, your country applauds you. Granted you do slightly more than the average person of the age range 15-25, but it's still not enough. You talk about people being ashamed if they aren't working to do change, but like you said, you can do alot better.

Why aren't you out every weekend volunteering? Why aren't you picking up trash out of parks and high-traffic areas at least twice a week? Why aren't you organizing said gathers instead of just going to them, why aren't you getting more of your friends into these activities, why aren't you heading the petitions and going door to door to get those signatures? Why why why why?

There are a dozen more things you could be doing, and all them don't require you to waste time talking about how someone else could be doing more halfway across the world. You won't cease to strive for the betterment of your country, but you won't devote as much time as possible will you? You'll just sign a petition or two, go to a gathering for 15 mins to pat yourself on the back and make you feel like an involved citizen.

Discussion about something is perfectly fine, as long as you remember it's discussion. Staying in the realm of discussion, and away from deciding how someone 5,000 miles away from you should feel are two different things, take care when you are dicussing things and remember that they aren't the same.