War with Iran

[Displaced]

so its just a coincidence that Iran has some of the worlds largest oil reserves?

also, i dont remember who it was that pointed out that the middle east is pissed off at the US for bing all up in their shit, that was hitting the nail on the head.

(now before you go flaming me for that, take into consideration that i have spent 14 years in the middle east, and have been to/lived in saudi arabia, united arab emirates, iraq, iran, israel, jordan, syria etc.)

98% of locals, dislike America and the american government for backing Israel (which is simple since all of the locals support palestine), they are also pissed because of the American precense in their "holy land" (Saudi Arabia), the fact that the americans have been involved in 2 wars with Iraq, is huge, Saddam is a "hero" to many, and his capture has just turned him into a martyr.

If the US really wanted to avoid all this hate from the ME, they would completely remove their presence in the ME, and stop funding Israel completely.

[404 Not Found]

98% of locals, dislike America and the american government for backing Israel (which is simple since all of the locals support palestine), they are also pissed because of the American precense in their "holy land" (Saudi Arabia), the fact that the americans have been involved in 2 wars with Iraq, is huge, Saddam is a "hero" to many, and his capture has just turned him into a martyr.

If the US really wanted to avoid all this hate from the ME, they would completely remove their presence in the ME, and stop funding Israel completely.

Two sides to the story so to say. Backing Israel is one thing, yet the Arab states say they support Palestine? Why do they not feed the economy of Palestine? With so much oil and monies coming in, it seems like Palestine is the bastard step child of the Arab states? Most of the monies that had been supporting the Palestinians comes from Europe and the States. The humanitarian and financial aid has been a majority from outside of these Arab states and it makes me wonder why there was not more monetary aid going to them from the so called Arabs with all the oil and money?

I personally find it to be so hypocritical of the Arab nations when they visit the US and drink and womanize while they are here, not to forget they own a large percentage of the properties in Southern California (Los Angeles & Santa Monica). Look at Rodeo Drive in L.A.! Almost forgot.....that it is a no no when in there countries to carry on like they do here! 98% of the people from the States want nothing to do with them either! Not to sound prejudice, but it seems to be agreed on both sides that neither culture/peoples like one another outside of the trade of monetary funds.

Saddam is a hero it would seem to the Arabs, but do not forget it was the States that put him in power in the 1st place. We backed the assassination of the Iraqi political party with Saddam In 1959. Saddam failed in his 1st attempt to overthrow the Iraqi Govt. led by General Qaasim & Saddam fled to Egypt. He later did kill Qaasim in a coup led by the Ba-athist party backed by the CIA. This only lasted 9 months. Saddam came back into power after another coup in 1979. As much as a hero he may be to the Arabs, he was a pawn of the CIA, States and the West for decades prior to this war, backed by monetary funds from Mobil, Bechtel, British Petroleum and so many more!

What the States need to do, is to stop putting dictators in control for monetary and political gain.

No one would argue that the entire last decade has been a fiasco with the political fallout and meddling that has taken place.

My point is that if they dislike the West so much, why do they rely so heavily on the monies that come from it? Why do the Arab states not help Palestine, aside from giving them terrorist camps and weapons?

As technology gets more advanced the world seems to be getting smaller and smaller. If Israel is to be no more, who is next? Who will be the next country to have to be removed from the face of the earth because one group/culture/religion of people do not like them?

If what your saying shines truth to your belief, than Eta of Spain should be able to remove the Spanish Govt and re-draw the countries borders and where justified in their fight. Not that I agree with that, but hey...on the same level it stands true next to Palestine & Israel on some levels...not all...but some.

Regardless, as long as one has a belief that the other is wrong, be it from religion or education, then there will always be disputes and hatred towards one another due to a lack of political belief, education, understanding and moral values.

[Displaced]

404, i dont know where you are getting your "information" from, but Kuwait, Saudi, Jordan and the UAE are literally pouring money into Palestine, now im not saying it is going to humanitarian aid or financial aid, i assume most of it is going to fund organisations like hamas.

As for the "hypocracy" of arabs living or residing in the USA, most of these arabs are "well off", and have actually been educated outside of their own countries, be it in the UK, US, Canada or possibly Switzerland, their "outlook" on life is very different to that of the ordinary class arab, and is much more influenced by business, and if you want to do business, the states is the place to be. (Money superseeds religion).

As for saddam, everyone knows that the US put him into power, and that the CIA is responsible for alot of shit that has happened in Iraq, that is however besides the point.
The reason he is a "hero" is because for over a decade he stood up to the UN and America, he didn't cooperate with the western powers, and he did what he wanted to do without "giving in" to the outside will of western "infidels", sure he was put into power and was initially a lackey for the US, but he wasn't one throughout his rule.

Also 404, lets say (hypothetically) that tomorrow a group of militants from Syria come visit your hometown, seize it, and start telling you what you can and cannot do, would you be thrilled? I assume you would hate to be governed by some guy who sits on his throne in syria, and really doesnt have a clue about your religion, beliefs, or way of life.

That's basically what the US is doing, not letting the ME govern themselves the way they want to be, without really even considering their social or religious backgrounds.

This has been going on for so long, that the hate has grown to incorporate other countries from the western world, basically for not doing anything about it.

As for relying on the west for monetary gain, business is business, a good businessman (which many of the ME leaders are) wont mess business and religion, as such they will continue to do business as usual as long as it is possible and as long as their people arent completely against it, because at the end of the day, every country needs to make money, stopping trade with the west would be an economic disaster for the countries in the ME, the leaders may not like it, but they arent dumb enough to commit economic suicide.

The world is getting smaller, i agree, however i dont agree with the ideals of the ME or those of the US, im just pointing out the ME perspective from what i have learned while living there.

Israel does not deserve to be wiped out from the face of the earth, but as long as the US supports israel and as long as the other ME countries support palestine, there will never be peace, and even if both sides stopped backing their "race horse", it would take decades before any agreements were met, simply because of the deep seeded hatred for one another.
There is no "simple" solution to the problems in the ME, but a great start would be for the US to let the countries govern themselves, instead of trying to police the globe.

As for the Eta situation, i understand that the bask separatists want to govern themselves, and i do understand why the spanish government doesnt want that to happen (it is a highly economic area), i dont agree with holding a population that doesnt want to be governed with force, and maybe the bask region should gain its independance.
That however isnt for me to say, since i dont know the exact details of the conflicts in spain, i feel that i do however have enough insight/knowledge to discuss the ME.

Your closing "point" holds water, however if there were no "reason" for the ME to dislike the US (i.e the US pulled out from the ME and stopped funing israel), there would not be a concensus of dislike, and only a few "radical" groups would have anything against the US.

It would be much easier to build trust if the playing field were neutral, instead of filled with prejudice and dislike, be it due to a general distrust of the Islamic culture/religion, or due to a deep seeded dislike of the US foreign policy.

[404 Not Found]

US Foreign policy does suck..no arguments from me on that.

As for money supercedes religion. Your correct on this, but it would seem that this is changing in parts of the States with the evangelical push in this nation. Religion = tax shelter.

What has become a world that is interdependent on everyone, puts to the test of humanitarian rites as well as many other things. I for one would love it if the States had minimal relations with the ME. I would also prefer the States to go back to being the agricultural country it once was and not the service oriented country it has become.

As for my education with peoples from the ME, as well as many S. American & S.E. Asian countries, I went to a private school & University yrs. ago and a large percentage of my classmates , of whose families where well off, where from the ME, S. America and S.E. Asia. Many of them where from SA, Lebanon, Peru, Brazil and so on...they where not living in the States prior and only came to the States for education, only to leave after.

If the west would abandon support for Israel, what do you see the future to hold for this country? Should it be destroyed and wiped off the map as Iran says it should? How would it be dealt with?

Iran IMHO, will not become a warzone with the States....the people of the States will not allow this to happen. Bush will be a lame duck for the rest of his term. He is looking at a senatorial and congressional change moving to a Democratic majority and if this happens the subpoenas that will take place on the current cabinet will tie up everything for years.

Let me throw this into the mix since you lived in the ME. Why (not based solely upon the country of Israel itself) is there such a hatred towards the Jews in the ME? Not all Israeli's are Jews. Is it based entirely upon the country of Israel itself or is it based upon the religion? My ex had family that lived in SA and UAE for many many years, the ridicule and actions on their part where particularly nasty, just because I have family that is of the Jewish faith. Now I never lived or had anything to do with Israel, but yet I was called every name in the book. I personally do not understand the violence & hatred that comes from the peoples all over the world that have zero tolerance for others beliefs. I have never tried to persuade someone to believe in something else. Personally I am agnostic and do not belive in any organized religion! I do find that many people think that if you are Israeli you must be Jewish, of which is wrong too.

It's a mess and I agree that the West should have less involvement. Yet I also think that the ME should not riot and be able to dictate to the West, such as in France where the dress codes for public schooling where challenged. If you look at this like the West in the ME. Then the Muslims in the West need to either go to a religious school or deal with the rules of a public/non-religious school agenda and not their own. Off topic I know!

We could debate so many issues & I appreciate your reply too! Helps me understand you as well as many others here in the TW forum.

[ConcreteSchlyrd]

404, i dont know where you are getting your "information" from, but Kuwait, Saudi, Jordan and the UAE are literally pouring money into Palestine, now im not saying it is going to humanitarian aid or financial aid, i assume most of it is going to fund organisations like hamas.

And this is helping solve the problem... how? It takes one trip to look at the USAID website to see that America has been dumping hundreds of millions of dollars (annually) into Palestinian aid across the board: revitalizing it's private sector, infrastructure and water resources, health and community services, education. Now if you're equating that with contributing directly to one specific political organization--well, then I think we're on different pages on what "aid" truly is.

That's basically what the US is doing, not letting the ME govern themselves the way they want to be, without really even considering their social or religious backgrounds.

This has been going on for so long, that the hate has grown to incorporate other countries from the western world, basically for not doing anything about it.

Isn't the leadership of the ME states just as at fault? Don't they have the capability of telling American interests that "we do not want you here"? It seems impossible to me that Americans are just walking in and setting up camp without help from domestic parties. Maybe it's just me, but it sounds like Middle Eastern countries are being very pick-and-choose about when they actually want an American hand in things--yes, we want your money, but no, we don't want you to have in-kind trade. It seems like (at least to some degree) they're playing the victim, when really all they need to do is have their own governments draw a line. Are we at fault for that?

As for relying on the west for monetary gain, business is business, a good businessman (which many of the ME leaders are) wont mess business and religion, as such they will continue to do business as usual as long as it is possible and as long as their people arent completely against it, because at the end of the day, every country needs to make money, stopping trade with the west would be an economic disaster for the countries in the ME, the leaders may not like it, but they arent dumb enough to commit economic suicide.

I agree, but that's the issue--who's stance about what is mutually beneficial is to be taken as law? The US administration? Hamas? The Saudi royals? Egypt?

The world is getting smaller, i agree, however i dont agree with the ideals of the ME or those of the US, im just pointing out the ME perspective from what i have learned while living there.

I applaud you for injecting your perspective, and I hopefully haven't treaded on your values--educated discourse is exactly what's needed in this situation, and unfortunately it's far too often overlooked.

Israel does not deserve to be wiped out from the face of the earth, but as long as the US supports israel and as long as the other ME countries support palestine, there will never be peace, and even if both sides stopped backing their "race horse", it would take decades before any agreements were met, simply because of the deep seeded hatred for one another.
There is no "simple" solution to the problems in the ME, but a great start would be for the US to let the countries govern themselves, instead of trying to police the globe.

Again, I know the US has dumped about $3.5 trillion (in 2002-based dollars) to Israel since the end of WWII. But we've also done a lot to improve the situation of the average Palestinian man/woman/child, and are constantly ramping up more aid. What both sides need to look at is the simple question: Are either state going to just "go away"? The answer is a resounding no. Both religions claim the area as their holy center, and short of genocide (which I don't think moderates on either side earnestly want to take any part in) there's no way of removing either. So instead of doing this horse shit "I kill ten of your people, you kill 15 of mine, I kill 20 of yours, you kill 25 of mine," wouldn't it be more sensible to actually sit down and figure out something that we all could live with?

It would be much easier to build trust if the playing field were neutral, instead of filled with prejudice and dislike, be it due to a general distrust of the Islamic culture/religion, or due to a deep seeded dislike of the US foreign policy.

Overall, I think we're on the same page. I don't agree with American foreign policy for the most part either, but I'm also trying to take in all the facts. I agree that worldwide cooperation is going to be paramount as technology continues to shrink the virtual distance of physical and psychological borders.

[WuTang420]

Blind obedience. Beautiful.

What else is there to know? seriously. Iran is enriching Uranium to be used in nuclear power plants, this opens the door for them to making a bomb, the Govnt. of Iran is controlled by extremist who wouldn't think twice about using the technology on their own people much less a neighbouring state.Is it that you just don't care or don't have enough time to have an opinion WuTang420? I mean if all you do is trust elected officals to tell you what's what you tend to get fucked over.

As for Bush, I think he's done enough to show that the economic well being of him self and his friends comes before the safety & security and economic well being of his country and allies. I don't see how anyone could actually like what this man has done in 5 or 6 years in power Genocial, I think everyone has a right to be a little pissed at the man. For someone who has done almost everything wrong in the middle east, to be dealing with an almost nuclear power is unnerving at best. I want the best for the US because Canada is a close ally but I also feel that criticism is a necessary tool. It's not anti-American, un-patriotic or unholy.. or wrong in anyway to do so. Maybe you should stop questioning everyones motives and actually talk to people, all I ever see you do is go at people for having an opinion and praising idiot sheep like 420.

actually kolar i have quite a strong opinion as i have a 1\2 brother a cousin and an uncle in Iraq as i type this. they wouldnt take me because of past injury (i cant run\climb stairs).
i got a call from my uncle while at my grandmas house last week and he told me about being shot at by child of no more than 14 years old. needless to say the kid didnt do so well. probably told "hey kid, kill an american youll be closer to god!".
im sorry but thats not right, and any leader who teaches 14 yr olds how to shoot ppl needs his balls smashed with a hammer.

the point im trying to make is these people are madmen\tyrants. and i dont know how similar the attitude (kill americans) is in Iran, but if its anything similar do YOU want them to have nuke potential?

i say if your as loco as saddam, and are trying to build\hide\develop nukes, be ready to get your ass handed to you, shock and awe style. we cant have the potential for that much destruction in the wrong hands, or were gonna end up with somebody INNOCENT like france or some shit w\e getting blown the fuck up. at witch point the world will say," dammit, shoulda let USA fuck em up to begin with".

[Displaced]

I enjoy discussing politics and religion with people from other corners of the globe, and get to see their perspectives and insights.

It is true that a large percent of those going to the US to study, leave after completing their studies, either due to their families wanting it or, due to the interest of pursuing thier families business abroad, however most of these well off individuals will at one point or anther do business in the states, and may well purchase residences in the states to use during these "business trips".

Im not saying that all of them do, but i would say that the majority of well off arabs, will reside in other places than their home town/country once they are older. (atleast from time to time, perhaps not all day, every year.)

i.e. our old neighbours in the UAE sent all their kids to private schools in the UK (eaton iirc) since it was a family tradition to do so, and the whole family currently resides in london.

I think if the west abandoned support for israel, the ME countries would also "calm down" a little, since the US support is "fueling their fire", allowing them to fight their "own" battles.
I don't forsee peace in the near future even without western support, and Israel's arsenal is massive enough without continued aid, but i do think that once both sides "realise" that they are on their own, that an agreement would be met much earlier than at the current rate.

I cant comment on the type of agreement, wether they would share jerusalem etc, or how it would work, because i dont think anyone could say how the negotiations would advance.

I also doubt that the current government will gain enough support to move in on Iran, and i also assume that the current government has assessed the situation well enough to see that it would not be worthwhile to give the radical groups even more reason to recruit new militants and continue their "jihad" agains the US, IMHO the US best bet is to cooperate with the UN if any sanctions are placed against Iran, but not take any initiative in starting any sort of war.

Good question 404, and i cant actually give you a direct answer (you would be better off asking someone who is of arabic descent), however i can give you my understanding and my belief on the subject.

While living in the KSA and UAE, any and all school material which included anything to do with judaism, or the jewish faith was banned by the ministry of education, so i dont "know" the history between the ME and Israel/Jews all that well, I think this is a prime reason for the hatred of the Jews, quite simply, the general population doesnt know anything about the jews, and are therefore "scared" of what they dont know/understand.

I however believe that the single largest factor is the same reason we have racism towards blacks or asians, "culture" and upbringing.

When israel was created, it "took away" muslim holy land from the muslims as well, this in turn created hatred for Israel, and more importantly Jews.
This "hate" is deep seeded, and isnt going away till the palestine - israel conflict is resolved, and has been for a long time, with that in mind, children are purely fed anti jewish propaganda, where they are told that israel is evil, and that jews are anti islamic, etc, and due to flaws in the educational system, most arabs will never know any different.
This skewed perception is then passed on from generation to generation, untill noone knows any better.

As for your ex and family in the KSA and UAE, i'd have to assume that they were there via the US military, and not as independant workers/residents, since it is "illegal" for people of jewish faith or israeli nationality to visit/reside in both the KSA and the UAE.
Now keeping in mind what was said earlier (that arabs generally dislike jews and americans), it is quite easy to see why americans working for the armed forces residing in either the KSA or UAE are already disliked, add the jewish faith into the mix, and you have a "prime" target for hate crimes and abuse.

I dont condone it, infact im completely against it, but i can see why it has happened.

Yes again, i dont agree with what is going on in france, but i think both parties are to blame here, i think it is absolutely obsurd that the french arent allowing muslims to wear their headgear and other attire, but i also think it is insane to riot and kill people for that reason, make a petition, send it to the government, and try and resolve it democratically, if that isnt possible, start your own school system that is in accordance with all the other french laws, and teach your children there.

[Displaced]

And this is helping solve the problem... how? It takes one trip to look at the USAID website to see that America has been dumping hundreds of millions of dollars (annually) into Palestinian aid across the board: revitalizing it's private sector, infrastructure and water resources, health and community services, education. Now if you're equating that with contributing directly to one specific political organization--well, then I think we're on different pages on what "aid" truly is.

It isn't helping at all, i've never stated that it is helping, just countering 404's point that the ME isnt actually "helping" palestine at all, sure it is, in a way that it feels it is best able to counter the threat from Israel, this is by pouring money into the Palestine militia movement and other anti-semetic movements.
I didnt say i agree with it, or that it is helping, but that is what is going on.

Isn't the leadership of the ME states just as at fault? Don't they have the capability of telling American interests that "we do not want you here"? It seems impossible to me that Americans are just walking in and setting up camp without help from domestic parties. Maybe it's just me, but it sounds like Middle Eastern countries are being very pick-and-choose about when they actually want an American hand in things--yes, we want your money, but no, we don't want you to have in-kind trade. It seems like (at least to some degree) they're playing the victim, when really all they need to do is have their own governments draw a line. Are we at fault for that?

I completely disagree with you here, the ME states have been whineing about the US presence in saudi, since the US got there, now i do know that the US have some sort of "policy" with the KSA, which means that the royal family of SA wants the US support to be there, however noone else does.

As for other countries with a US presence, it is pretty limited to "trade heavens" such as the UAE and possibly Oman/Bahrain/Kuwait, where the #1 objective is to make money and secure finance via trade and business before the countries oil exports deplete, it isn't religious at all, but an effort to secure the countries futures.
Again I know that many of the people and leaders in these countries wouldnt do business with the US or back them in any way if they had other means of securing their future, they dont, and therefore continue doing so, i dont think it is "wrong" to be doing so, even tho it does set a bit of a "double standard".

I agree, but that's the issue--who's stance about what is mutually beneficial is to be taken as law? The US administration? Hamas? The Saudi royals? Egypt?

I dont think its possible to state who's stance is correct, or what should be done about a situation.

I applaud you for injecting your perspective, and I hopefully haven't treaded on your values--educated discourse is exactly what's needed in this situation, and unfortunately it's far too often overlooked.

Im from Finland, so you can say exactly what you want to without worrying about treading on my values or in some way hurting my feelings.

Again, I know the US has dumped about $3.5 trillion (in 2002-based dollars) to Israel since the end of WWII. But we've also done a lot to improve the situation of the average Palestinian man/woman/child, and are constantly ramping up more aid. What both sides need to look at is the simple question: Are either state going to just "go away"? The answer is a resounding no. Both religions claim the area as their holy center, and short of genocide (which I don't think moderates on either side earnestly want to take any part in) there's no way of removing either. So instead of doing this horse shit "I kill ten of your people, you kill 15 of mine, I kill 20 of yours, you kill 25 of mine," wouldn't it be more sensible to actually sit down and figure out something that we all could live with?

I think i addressed this in my post to 404, and yes i agree that they should just figure something out, but i dont see it happening while both sides are being backed by the west and the me respectively.
As for the sum of 3.5b USD, i wasn't aware that the US put that much into the palestinian economy, nor do i think that the arab world is aware of the magnitude of the US aid.

Overall, I think we're on the same page. I don't agree with American foreign policy for the most part either, but I'm also trying to take in all the facts. I agree that worldwide cooperation is going to be paramount as technology continues to shrink the virtual distance of physical and psychological borders.

Agreed completely, i think what "separates" our reasoning, and possibly our views on particular subjects are our experiences, you being american, and having been subjected to the american press, and american ideals.. im on the flipside of that, having been subjected to ME sensorship and religion, it skew's the facts no matter how hard you try to look at a "non biased" source.

[404 Not Found]

In re. to my Ex's family. They worked for Mobil Corp. and their children of whom where the nastiest racist jerks, where educated there as well.

When they came back to the States, they had all these odd ideas and comments as I mentioned previously. They where not military, just asswipe oil ppl.

[Displaced]

ah, the "Red O" club, that would explain it too, since they aquire their visa's via mobil and not via the KSA and UAE consulates.

Ive known a few people who work for mobil and its a very "tight knit" bunch, always go to the same "Red O club" for all holidays, meals, anniversaries, you name it, its the same people together..

I can't say i noticed any racism or anything else "worring" during my time spent with them, i do however know that my father didn't hold them in high regard, and thought they were quite stuck up and "unwilling" to conform to local rules and regulations, but did everything in the "american way".

I.e. in saudi, women had to cover up in an abaja and werent allowed to drive, or leave our "campus" area without their spouse and proper paperwork.

Some of these mobil women would go to the shop in their husbands car wearing shorts and a t-shirt, (looking for trouble) and get into all kinds of trouble with the local mutawa and police forces, but due to their status with Mobil, not much was ever done to these women.

Which i assume is another reason why many saudi nationals especially older and more religious saudi nationals, dislike americans.

[Richard Creager]

I don't think I'm replying to the rest of this thread, why aren't you fucking btiches this chatty when it comes to more important matters? (existance of the individual, and the consideration of the current, possible, and preferred direction there of, though I guess this is because your directional ablities of your considerations are rather limited in dimension)

I'll be giving advice.

The no child left behind = fiasco with education systems in the States.

The education system of this country has always been a fiasco to begin with, yeah fucking it up even more of couse, but it's hard to make such a shitty foundation better, let alone work correctly. Though the problem lies in the relativity of correct in people and those who run the places, misguided is what their idea of it happens to be.

medicare = twice as confusing and screwed up more now

The medicinal industry is a laugh, it is the same deal as the last issue.

Social Security = never got rid of it

Fixed.

His Tax cut in his first term = ends up it does not benefit the middle class or poor....helps the rich from paying 1/3 of what they had to pay prior to this tax break. Hmmm Bush and Cheney fall into this tax bracket?

Looks like he pulled it over on them. Why didn't people complain when it was proposed? Oh did no one read it until now?

Homeland Security = One f' up after another

I liked Homeland Security better back when it was still called the FBI.

Denial of cliamte change = global warming is worse than previously thought... greenland ice is melting, the gulf stream is slowed by 1/3 in a decade, permifrost is melting in russia revealing bogs which relase methane and some scientists believe we may even get a perminant el ninio effect but still some countries (USA) are so far up their asses that they dont see whats comming. Bush denies that these are real problems and will not come to the table in efforts to work with the world on this.

Hey, he PLAYS his golf, like I used to play my sb, all the fucking time, he's outside at 5am everyday, surely he'd know if it was getting hotter out.

Someone just list 10 positive things that he has done that are beneficial to everyone?

1-10. Getting away with it.

Goes real far in showing you all how weak you truly are, while I watch everone complain about the fact of how stupid it makes them look (and maybe feel? oh wait, that would require you to even be aware of your self, something not much stressed on in our society, even in the institutions for educa-BRAINWASHING) from a distance. Ever being reminded of why I am in the pursuits I am in, giving me a defined direction of pure stupidity from which I can redirect my self in the exact opposite one by reference. The big glaring ugly shining example also works to inspire me in my quest more than if it were possible for me to be complacent here like the mass. This is why I like Dubya, the man's gonna do it, it's the same reason Jerome had liked him. It is the big change, a direction of a crash, so that for once in a long fucking time, there will be no huge stupid flow for everyone mentally "laid back" to just jump onto, people will begin to HAVE to think for themselves, for their selves and about their selves (failure to will most likely result in an end). It is very much GUARANTEED that in such a time the whole of man will become brighter, even though the existance is still unbearably light, the bliss seeking mentality of the general flow makes it also rather dark and worthless, furthering the problem we already face for just BEING here.

And besides, who would ever want to nuke our landform if it wasn't THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA and all the 200 years of stuff that people today still aren't happy about, not to mention the entity itself and it's capabilities and the unpredictability of its direction of will while having much killing ability, oh, and did I mention the people here are DAMN stupid so what much would they care if they were chewing on radiation, they figure they're doing the world a favor and while technically they would be but, they're still cultist propegators, so the same shit will still happen, but now, more background radiation will be added to our already raised several times amounts one we live in today (and cancer all of a sudden happening in lots of people on an ever increasing ratio of the populace) to make sure that they too will soon meet their end and the facade of the cult forever, though they'll probably be prideful enough in the idea of the cult to take the rest of man with it, that is, if man can really sit idly by and let the cult decide the fate of that which ultimate is the existential experience for any who takes being in the name of man. I know I don't plan on letting cults exist once things become more "open" in the realm of directional capability of will. At a time like that, it is absolutely crucial that the existance of man starts truly fresh, forget your fucking scriptures, they're all bullshit anyways. Not to mention the fact they make you complacent with your limited existance, or if not you, many of those around you, and lead some to believe that such an existance is acceptable and worth propegating.

[Hakaku]

Hey, he PLAYS his golf, like I used to play my sb, all the fucking time, he's outside at 5am everyday, surely he'd know if it was getting hotter out.

Your post doesn't make much sense, is this suppose to be real or just a badly made joke?

[brookus]

I think if the west abandoned support for israel, the ME countries would also "calm down" a little...

You honestly think this? These are the same countries that want to wipe Israel off the map, right? This is the same region that has seen at least four wars against Israel since 1948? Somehow, I think us abandoning Israel would lead to another Arab-Israeli war.

I completely disagree with you here, the ME states have been whineing about the US presence in saudi, since the US got there...

So us leaving two years ago should help things? http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/ne...430-psab01.htm

llater,
Tony

[404 Not Found]

Hey, he PLAYS his golf, like I used to play my sb, all the fucking time, he's outside at 5am everyday, surely he'd know if it was getting hotter out.

GWB does not play Golf. His father did during the 1st Gulf War as well as fished everyday.

[Displaced]

the palestine-israel conflict isnt a Arab-Israeli war?

part of the reason israel is so frowned upon is beacuse it is the USA's lackey, and cant fight its own battles...

leave it well alone, and let it do just that.

as for the US troops in Saudi, there is still a military presence in KSA, despite a pullout in 03, the FBI and CIA still train the Royal Guard, and still aid the KSA Army, so it's not a complete pullout..

Also, what im saying is the US should NEVER have put troops into KSA to begin with, thats something like bin laden putting militants in the whitehouse. (to muslims)