War with Iran

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Honestly every american here answer me! How much shit do you think the Middle East will take from you?

Hmm...good question. I do not know the answer to that either, but if anything should happen to arrive in an explosive state here in the States, I am sure it will be shared with you, our Canadian neighbors. Don't feel left out! Fallout is non discriminatory.

[Zemyla]

I'm thinking there'll be some kind of "accident" at an Iranian nuclear refining plant. That'd be the easiest way.

[Vykromond]

RE: ConcreteSchlyrd

I would agree that operations in Kosovo were warranted and ultimately benefitted all involved, despite errors and individual failures.

I also think that Operation Desert Storm (Iraq I) was not "pointless."

I'm on the fence about Afghanistan. We have not done much to improve the standard of living in the country at all, regional factionalism has kept the society rigid and oppressive, and the Taliban (as well as Taliban-like groups) are creeping back into power in multiple portions of the country. Furthermore, it was a "regime change" war, as well as a policing action for the sake of curtailing terrorism. I feel that the second goal is justified (justified to take some action, not necessarily to go to war), but not the first- I would prefer that there be an overriding interest in preserving world peace to justify the former, and not just a "women in burqas is bad lol." I don't mean that as a slap in the face to women's rights, just to point out that there are a hell of a lot of countries like that, and not a hell of a lot of countries where genocide is occurring that could really use military intervention.

This was pretty much a completely pointless post, but I don't usually put my opinions out there on this board so I figured I might as well

[Capital Knockers]

Conc/Vyk - ultimatly pointless is what I meant. Sure some of these operations have had their benefits to other people involved, but thats not the point. All these wars, the real reasons behind them aren't the reasons the world is given. Americans are pumped full of so much bloody bullshit. In the mornings, I like to watch CNN with my dad before he goes to work, I laugh my ass off. It's like comedy to me, because I can't beleive the shit they can say with a straight face. They've killed so many innocent people due to their blundering, and meddling in others affairs. Now once again, the people I like, I just can't understand how Americans can sit back and still feel proud to call themselves American when they've caused so much pain to so many different people, with nowhere near enough just reasoning and diplomatic effort.

Conc, I whole-heartedly disagree, and will refer to Zues!! when he said in the other post.. that us whites/catholics having been waging war on muslims for so damn long. We're the aggressive ones here, and have been for a long time. I know alot of Muslim/Arab people etc. They're really cool, and the fucking sterotypes are horrid. We are the the problem causing people, and America is spearheading it. If the States don't back off, they will get a fucking nuke up their ass. Honestly, at this rate I give it 5-6 years.

It's time America paid for their crimes. If I had my way, Bush and quite a few others would hang, in public, beside Saddam, and other crooked dictators that the states trained and funded.

It kind of reminds me of Hitler and the Nazis - Hitler your not aloud to take over anymore countries.. ohh ok you can have there, but no more.. ohh that one too? ok just a little bit.. but if you take Poland, its war!

Whos Poland now, and when will the world get some fucking balls and tell the U.S. to sit the fuck down before their fucking stupidity gets alot more innocent people killed.

[genocidal]

I would agree that operations in Kosovo were warranted and ultimately benefitted all involved, despite errors and individual failures.

I also think that Operation Desert Storm (Iraq I) was not "pointless."

I'm on the fence about Afghanistan. We have not done much to improve the standard of living in the country at all, regional factionalism has kept the society rigid and oppressive, and the Taliban (as well as Taliban-like groups) are creeping back into power in multiple portions of the country. Furthermore, it was a "regime change" war, as well as a policing action for the sake of curtailing terrorism. I feel that the second goal is justified (justified to take some action, not necessarily to go to war), but not the first- I would prefer that there be an overriding interest in preserving world peace to justify the former, and not just a "women in burqas is bad lol." I don't mean that as a slap in the face to women's rights, just to point out that there are a hell of a lot of countries like that, and not a hell of a lot of countries where genocide is occurring that could really use military intervention.

This was pretty much a completely pointless post, but I don't usually put my opinions out there on this board so I figured I might as well

If you think regime change is bad why do you like the Kosovo War but not Afghanistan? Of all three of those wars I think most people will agree that Afghanistan was the most justified. That's where the attackers were, that's where other terrorist organizations were, and the fact that the Taliban, which is hardly a regime in the typical sense - more like the most central group that paid off other warlords in Afghanistan in exchange for a degree of power, was a corrupted and terrorism supporting government.

Kosovo on the other hand was interventionist and forced a regime change. Sure Milosevic was a really bad guy, but the Albanians did some equally bad things to the Serbs - just not quite in the sheer numbers as the other way around. It was a fucked up situation (much like Rwanda) where the US made a stand against a genocidal and repressive dictator/president.

EDIT: Capital Knockers, your posts are so ignorant they barely warrant reference. You cite nothing that CNN talking heads say to piss you off - you speak in the abstract only (it's probably based on shit you read in The New Republic or Ad Busters). Maybe one day Canada will "pay" for its apathy.

[ConcreteSchlyrd]

Conc/Vyk - ultimatly pointless is what I meant. Sure some of these operations have had their benefits to other people involved, but thats not the point. All these wars, the real reasons behind them aren't the reasons the world is given. Americans are pumped full of so much bloody bullshit. In the mornings, I like to watch CNN with my dad before he goes to work, I laugh my ass off. It's like comedy to me, because I can't beleive the shit they can say with a straight face. They've killed so many innocent people due to their blundering, and meddling in others affairs. Now once again, the people I like, I just can't understand how Americans can sit back and still feel proud to call themselves American when they've caused so much pain to so many different people, with nowhere near enough just reasoning and diplomatic effort.

But you're wrong. Some interventions haven't been pointless. And to say they were ultimately pointless is even more idiotic--only time can dictate what happens, and not enough time has passed to show how things have played out. Sea change doesn't happen overnight, but I think enough positive things have happened in a lot of situations to show that things are moving in a positive manner. How would you want things to work? A revolution? Sure, overthrowing your own government may make your heart happy, but for a LONG time things would be in complete disarray. Would you claim you were unhappy then, too? America has done a LOT of positive things for the world, and focusing only on the immediate negative doesn't do any good at all.

Do you want the western world to immediately and completely pull everything out of the Middle East? Do you realize that that very well might wreck their economy and cause even more strife? Would the extremists then blame the western world for wrecking their economy? It's a delicate situation, and a heavy-handed "we need to get out completely" isn't an option, really.

Conc, I whole-heartedly disagree, and will refer to Zues!! when he said in the other post.. that us whites/catholics having been waging war on muslims for so damn long. We're the aggressive ones here, and have been for a long time. I know alot of Muslim/Arab people etc. They're really cool, and the fucking sterotypes are horrid. We are the the problem causing people, and America is spearheading it. If the States don't back off, they will get a fucking nuke up their ass. Honestly, at this rate I give it 5-6 years.

I think you're misinterpreting what I said. I know a lot of Musim/Arab people as well. Yes, the ones I know are cool. However, I also know a lot of cool white/Catholic/Protestant/whatever people. The problem here isn't a race or religion, it's the extremists of both. I can almost guarantee that you don't associate with extremist Muslims, so therefore you can't say that just because the people you know are cool means that all of them are accepting. In the same vein, everyone should be able to accept that all Christians aren't accepting--some of them are assholes. Again, you're making broad, sweeping generalizations based on personal opinion.

There are crazies on both sides, and the problem is that people (again, on both sides) keep electing the crazies into power.

It kind of reminds me of Hitler and the Nazis - Hitler your not aloud to take over anymore countries.. ohh ok you can have there, but no more.. ohh that one too? ok just a little bit.. but if you take Poland, its war!

Whos Poland now, and when will the world get some fucking balls and tell the U.S. to sit the fuck down before their fucking stupidity gets alot more innocent people killed.

Again, the Hitler comparison is fucking shoddy. There's no forced extermination of people based upon race, for a rather large bullet point. Yes, there have been a lot of deaths (on both sides). Do I agree with everything that's happened? Hell no.

But what I am saying is that the US isn't alone in causing deaths--France, Germany, the UK, Iran (committed genocide against people of the Ba'hai faith), North Korea... everyone's at fault. Until people (and I do mean everyone) can just chill out and start working with people instead of forcing ideas down people's throats, this is going to be a recurring problem.

[Money]

2 words





HIROSHIMA AND NAGASAKI

[genocidal]

That's 3, and what do they have to do with anything?

[Capital Knockers]

But you're wrong. Some interventions haven't been pointless. And to say they were ultimately pointless is even more idiotic--only time can dictate what happens, and not enough time has passed to show how things have played out. Sea change doesn't happen overnight, but I think enough positive things have happened in a lot of situations to show that things are moving in a positive manner. How would you want things to work? A revolution? Sure, overthrowing your own government may make your heart happy, but for a LONG time things would be in complete disarray. Would you claim you were unhappy then, too? America has done a LOT of positive things for the world, and focusing only on the immediate negative doesn't do any good at all.

Do you want the western world to immediately and completely pull everything out of the Middle East? Do you realize that that very well might wreck their economy and cause even more strife? Would the extremists then blame the western world for wrecking their economy? It's a delicate situation, and a heavy-handed "we need to get out completely" isn't an option, really.


I think you're misinterpreting what I said. I know a lot of Musim/Arab people as well. Yes, the ones I know are cool. However, I also know a lot of cool white/Catholic/Protestant/whatever people. The problem here isn't a race or religion, it's the extremists of both. I can almost guarantee that you don't associate with extremist Muslims, so therefore you can't say that just because the people you know are cool means that all of them are accepting. In the same vein, everyone should be able to accept that all Christians aren't accepting--some of them are assholes. Again, you're making broad, sweeping generalizations based on personal opinion.

There are crazies on both sides, and the problem is that people (again, on both sides) keep electing the crazies into power.


Again, the Hitler comparison is fucking shoddy. There's no forced extermination of people based upon race, for a rather large bullet point. Yes, there have been a lot of deaths (on both sides). Do I agree with everything that's happened? Hell no.

But what I am saying is that the US isn't alone in causing deaths--France, Germany, the UK, Iran (committed genocide against people of the Ba'hai faith), North Korea... everyone's at fault. Until people (and I do mean everyone) can just chill out and start working with people instead of forcing ideas down people's throats, this is going to be a recurring problem.

I'm glad you can come up with such good points. It's rare to see a reply like that, especially to one of my rants

I just wish that instead of having such a large-scale operation, they would of used other methods first. I mean, personally, after 9/11 - I wouldn't of came out and said - thats it were going after them. I would of just launched my troops randomly. This whole Iraq thing is one big media-whore, and it's tearing us away from the real issues. Like instead of marching off to Iran, how bout we get Iraq and Afghanistan figured out first. People are still dying (yes on both sides) but Bush is still on the Warpath.. now it's at this point where I draw the line and throw political correctness out the window (hence the hitler stuff).

I can't beleive that a population of Americas size, could actually hear their president say we might be having another war (when we havent even finished the other major operations we have going) and not revolt. Especially with the Immigration/Drug/Economic/Natural Issues on their homefront. It's completely unprofessional, and Americans need to stand up and say "fuck this noise!" I mean Canada may not have a military, but at least when we did we knew how to use it properly, and effeciently.

Really, what it comes down to for me is this. Like it or not, America has broken alot of rules and laws. They walk around the world punishing other countries without even concrete evidence for breaking the rules, yet they think they rest above the law. It's time the U.S. received it's dues, it's punishments, for the things its done. And geno, it doesn't matter what I read or watch, it doesn't make the things im referring to any less true.. if you'd really like some concrete stuff I could dig it up easily, alot of the shit I base this on is de-classified american documents, that anyone can read.. but everyones too stupid to look through any of that.. no they just like to beleive what they like the best.

edit - really the u.s has done alot of great things, and big ups to that. Though the greatest things were done by the people, never the government. The government in the states needs to change, and quite soon, because they've shown repeatedly how incapable they are.. really yes, some kind of revolution is needed, and if threats of nukes going off (at this tension level) isnt enough motivation what is? I really dont like the idea of another cold war, and if things continue on this course, we could face on in the future.

[Troll King]

I don't think the U.S. needs to be punished so much as I think it has to help set things right, and a good step would be to work with the global community. Calling for great vengence and furious anger as you seem to be leaning towards only adds another round to the problems you're complaining about.

[Kolar]

I would of just launched my troops randomly. This whole Iraq thing is one big media-whore, and it's tearing us away from the real issues. Like instead of marching off to Iran, how bout we get Iraq and Afghanistan figured out first. People are still dying (yes on both sides) but Bush is still on the Warpath.. now it's at this point where I draw the line and throw political correctness out the window (hence the hitler stuff).

I can't beleive that a population of Americas size, could actually hear their president say we might be having another war (when we havent even finished the other major operations we have going) and not revolt. Especially with the Immigration/Drug/Economic/Natural Issues on their homefront. It's completely unprofessional, and Americans need to stand up and say "fuck this noise!" I mean Canada may not have a military, but at least when we did we knew how to use it properly, and effeciently.

Really, what it comes down to for me is this. Like it or not, America has broken alot of rules and laws. They walk around the world punishing other countries without even concrete evidence for breaking the rules, yet they think they rest above the law. It's time the U.S. received it's dues, it's punishments, for the things its done. And geno, it doesn't matter what I read or watch, it doesn't make the things im referring to any less true.. if you'd really like some concrete stuff I could dig it up easily, alot of the shit I base this on is de-classified american documents, that anyone can read.. but everyones too stupid to look through any of that.. no they just like to beleive what they like the best.

Iraq was invaded because the American plan is to change the middle east into a democratic area of the world for security and economic reasons. Unless Hussein was taken out he could annux large portions of it and cause even more of a mess. I don't agree with this plan or the new conservative ideology. I think regime change in Afghanistan was valid and the right thing to do but little has changed, it's a mock democratic state that has no will to be more socially and religiously free.


The only thing I will agree with you on is that the good can never out weight the bad. The United States (and I'm saying this about all political parties, all levels of govn.) has caused and failed to stop some very terrible things and they're not alone, past-presient and future. What's different here is the blind obedience and apathy I see and get from a lot of people.. I mean for a man who has cuased 100,000+ deaths in being wrong about Iraq, the man and political party still has something like 35-40% approval to continue on doing their shit. I don't understand what you mean by "received their dues", do you believe the West deserves to be attacked by terrorist?

Also the Hilter references are just old, offensive and cheapens all dialog.

[Capital Knockers]

I don't think the U.S. needs to be punished so much as I think it has to help set things right, and a good step would be to work with the global community. Calling for great vengence and furious anger as you seem to be leaning towards only adds another round to the problems you're complaining about.

I like to say things with a flare, it grabs more attention. The point is people need to be treated equally. How can the U.S. justify it's mistakes by saying - well we did good stuff too! If any other country said that in their defence the U.S. would call it bullshit and rightfully so. Sure you can say that with my logic, why aren't we punishing Britain and France for all their crusades on the Muslims.. but we didn't have nukes then. The stakes are too high, and the U.S. needs to at least back the hell off. The world is one giant pussy, the states get away with anything, and we need to learn to say - No America, your not aloud to do this, and if you do you will face the same punishments these other countries have been forced to receive as well.

[ConcreteSchlyrd]

I just wish that instead of having such a large-scale operation, they would of used other methods first. I mean, personally, after 9/11 - I wouldn't of came out and said - thats it were going after them. I would of just launched my troops randomly. This whole Iraq thing is one big media-whore, and it's tearing us away from the real issues. Like instead of marching off to Iran, how bout we get Iraq and Afghanistan figured out first. People are still dying (yes on both sides) but Bush is still on the Warpath.. now it's at this point where I draw the line and throw political correctness out the window (hence the hitler stuff).

I can't beleive that a population of Americas size, could actually hear their president say we might be having another war (when we havent even finished the other major operations we have going) and not revolt. Especially with the Immigration/Drug/Economic/Natural Issues on their homefront. It's completely unprofessional, and Americans need to stand up and say "fuck this noise!" I mean Canada may not have a military, but at least when we did we knew how to use it properly, and effeciently.

You can't just go "launching troops randomly," though. You just can't. Think about how bad it would've been if other countries just had American troop drops in them, with no explanation whatsoever. Then you go on to talk about "unprofessional"? Do you realize how much evasive negotiation went on with neighboring countries before troops even got deployed? Do you want an engraved invitation sent? I don't think that the Iraq invasion should have ever happened, however I don't think "unprofessional" is a good choice of words.

Yes, I agree that homeland issues should've been focused on. I agree that they still should be. There's a lot of problems in our own backyard that need critical tending-to.

However, when 9/11 happened, people freaked out a little. Some people became really upset and needed an outlet. Some people took note of why people might want to do this to us, and what we might be able to do to change that sentiment. But everyone took note. The problem right now is that the people who want revenge are speaking the loudest. I'm guessing you don't live in the US, or else you'd see that the tide is (however slowly) changing. Taking soundbytes from CNN or Fox News or anything else you may take in and claiming American hubris is no better than Fox News taking a single clip from Al Jazeera and crying "terrorist sympathizer."

Troll King said it best, up there--what we (the US) need to do is plainly: start to make things better. Work with people. Honestly receive other people's points of view. I think any true (Muslim, Christian, Bhuddist, Flying Spaghetti Monster, Clapton, etc) would agree that retribution isn't ultimately the right answer.

[Troll King]

I like to say things with a flare, it grabs more attention. The point is people need to be treated equally. How can the U.S. justify it's mistakes by saying - well we did good stuff too! If any other country said that in their defence the U.S. would call it bullshit and rightfully so. Sure you can say that with my logic, why aren't we punishing Britain and France for all their crusades on the Muslims.. but we didn't have nukes then. The stakes are too high, and the U.S. needs to at least back the hell off. The world is one giant pussy, the states get away with anything, and we need to learn to say - No America, your not aloud to do this, and if you do you will face the same punishments these other countries have been forced to receive as well.

Lose the flare and start saying what you mean. Your brand of rhetoric isn't helping your argument; it does grab attention, but only if the reaction you were looking for was "what the hell is wrong with this guy?". You're acting no differently from the talking heads on CNN that you deride.

[Vykromond]

If you think regime change is bad why do you like the Kosovo War but not Afghanistan? Of all three of those wars I think most people will agree that Afghanistan was the most justified. That's where the attackers were, that's where other terrorist organizations were, and the fact that the Taliban, which is hardly a regime in the typical sense - more like the most central group that paid off other warlords in Afghanistan in exchange for a degree of power, was a corrupted and terrorism supporting government.

Kosovo on the other hand was interventionist and forced a regime change. Sure Milosevic was a really bad guy, but the Albanians did some equally bad things to the Serbs - just not quite in the sheer numbers as the other way around. It was a fucked up situation (much like Rwanda) where the US made a stand against a genocidal and repressive dictator/president.

Because I feel that intervention in Kosovo had a clear basis in overriding humanitarian necessity, and I'm not sure if intervention in Afghanistan did. Like I said, I'm on the fence about it. You may be right. Claiming that you're right because "most people would agree" that you are, though, is pretty silly

Also: "Most central group that paid off other [violent competing groups] in [string countryname;] in exchange for a degree of power, [with] corruption [and terrorism, possibly?]" sounds like most of the Central Asian and African governments to me.