HeavenSent is bigoted

[Jerome Scuggs]

whoever said twforums were dumb

thanks conc for the interesting perspectives

edit: to clarify, i'm being serious, i feel my conservative shell slowly being peeled away thanks to fuckers like you

[ÆNIMA]

Are you suggesting that Heavensent's against adoption? Fill me in if he said that, because I didn't read much in the PETA file.

[Mantra-Slider]

ah I finally found the thread where it all started

[Pandagirl!]

I didn't, someone post the link

[PaulOakenfold]

I hope god speaks english, if I get up to heaven and I have to point at a menu, I'm going to be pissed.

[genocidal]

Why have an argument with an ignorant Bible-bopper like HeavenSent? On the risk of sounding like an asshole, I'll explain myself by saying that I've had similar conversations with HeavenSent and his (ex?)-wife, WorstPlayerEver, before and they all turned out about as well as this thread and the other one.

[ConcreteSchlyrd]

My hope is that at least one person will see this thread (or threads like it) and realize that there's some benefit to thinking critically, at the very least. They don't have to like my opinion or agree with it, but realize that there's always another way of looking at a situation.

This thread isn't about thrashing the Bible or Christians, because I think that they both have merit at some level. It's about the ability to logically weigh all the factors you can get your hands on and making an informed decision for yourself.

[genocidal]

For clarification, since HeavenSent likes to label people as Christian persecutors, the fact that he is ignorant has nothing to do with the fact that he is a Bible-bopper; they just happen to complement one another in his polarized opinions.

[Galleleo]

Up until around the 1950's homosexuality was considered a mental illness. It still is,

You're stating that as if everyone agrees on homosexuality to be an illness, like people agree on grass being green.

And since when is hetrosexuality a lifestyle? (Or homosexuality for that matter) When you were 12 (or around that age) did you just make the choice to like girls? Do you make the choice to cry, or smile, laugh, be angry? Do you chose which emotion you want to feel at a specific time? Because you falling for a girl, or boy, is just a feeling, a feeling you get inside. It's not a choice, you don't go like: Hmm, well today I am gonna go out and like girls. Alot of people that are homosexual try to date girls, convince themselves they like girls. Hell, some even get married and have kids, but it always comes out. So, they chose to be straight, and still turn gay. How is being gay a choice then?

Could someone point out the exact text in the bible that states that god doesn't aprove of homosexuality. I have no bible in my possession, but I have heard that nowhere in the bible does it specificly state that god dissaproves of homosexuality, but that christians who are against it just take some text out of context.

And as I have asked before. To the people that say that bad stuff happens to America because of America supporting gay peoples rights (soldiers dieing, 9/11, etc.). Why is it, that my country, the Netherlands has not been wiped clear of the earth yet? I mean, along with Spain we are, atm, the biggest pro-gay country in the world. And, if I am correct (maybe America has one too, not sure) the only, or one of the only, countries with an annual gay parade straight through Amsterdam. If that doesn't anger god enough to wipe us of the earth, what will? It's not like it's hard, break some dykes and we're gone.

Or is it that God only likes America? Because, why would god care about any other country in the world besides America (yes, I was sarcastic here).

[genocidal]

You're stating that as if everyone agrees on homosexuality to be an illness, like people agree on grass being green.

And since when is hetrosexuality a lifestyle? (Or homosexuality for that matter) When you were 12 (or around that age) did you just make the choice to like girls? Do you make the choice to cry, or smile, laugh, be angry? Do you chose which emotion you want to feel at a specific time? Because you falling for a girl, or boy, is just a feeling, a feeling you get inside. It's not a choice, you don't go like: Hmm, well today I am gonna go out and like girls. Alot of people that are homosexual try to date girls, convince themselves they like girls. Hell, some even get married and have kids, but it always comes out. So, they chose to be straight, and still turn gay. How is being gay a choice then?

Don't bother arguing with him over this.

Could someone point out the exact text in the bible that states that god doesn't aprove of homosexuality. I have no bible in my possession, but I have heard that nowhere in the bible does it specificly state that god dissaproves of homosexuality, but that christians who are against it just take some text out of context.

I have seen some of them before, but can't recall their location. Mostly it's talking about sexual deviancy being punished. It's mostly New Testament and I would guess Book of Revelations stuff.

And as I have asked before. To the people that say that bad stuff happens to America because of America supporting gay peoples rights (soldiers dieing, 9/11, etc.). Why is it, that my country, the Netherlands has not been wiped clear of the earth yet? I mean, along with Spain we are, atm, the biggest pro-gay country in the world. And, if I am correct (maybe America has one too, not sure) the only, or one of the only, countries with an annual gay parade straight through Amsterdam. If that doesn't anger god enough to wipe us of the earth, what will? It's not like it's hard, break some dykes and we're gone.

Or is it that God only likes America? Because, why would god care about any other country in the world besides America (yes, I was sarcastic here).

Only idiots say bad stuff happens to America because we support gay rights; and I don't think anyone here is going to argue that position (not even HeavenSent I hope).

By the way, the US has many gay parades in many different cities. Even my extremely southern city (but still a college town) has gay parades and puts up rainbow banners every year for gay week or whatever it's called.

[Galleleo]

Ok, I didn't know that. I only mostly hear about the gay parade here and that gay people from around the world come to join in. Never really heard alot of news about other gay parades or anything.

Edit: and from the quotes I read from Heavensent I understood that he too argued stuff happening because america supports homosexuality, but I could have misunderstood that part. Anyway, that's why I brought it up.

[Galleleo]

Sorry for doublepost.

I have seen some of them before, but can't recall their location. Mostly it's talking about sexual deviancy being punished. It's mostly New Testament and I would guess Book of Revelations stuff.

IF it only talks about sexual deviancy, then it's the christians translating that to the extent that homosexuality is a sexual deviancy, but it all depends on how you look at it. So IF (and I say IF) the bible only talks about sexual deviancy, no one can state for 100% sure that god dissaproves of homosexuality. Maybe he doesn't view it as a sexual deviancy. Maybe it was only some gay priests way back who were afraid that it would come out that they were gay and thus said in their speeches on sunday how god hates the gay.

[Yojo]

Whoa, a coherent, semi-civilized and interesting thread on TW Forums!

As Freud said, "“The first human who hurled an insult instead of a stone was the founder of civilization.”

Conversation, I believe, is the first step in achieving any degree of progress. Conc is simply providing the opposing viewpoint to an argument so that other people have the ability to see both sides of the issue, and then come to informed conclusions. One cannot truly believe wholeheartdly in a concept, viewpoint, or idea if he or she does not aknowledge the existence of an opposing stance. The best and most successful comprehend the necessity of listening to opposition at its core, and then taking that information to further support their own argument. Arguing without proper information is truly a hollow endeavor.

While it is clear where Conc's core political view are in this area, that is, I believe, not his main objective. All the credit to Conc for engaging in a debate not simply to aruge, but to both teach and to learn.

I'd like nothing more than to take part in this thread full out, but I simply don't have the time. I do, however, think Freud sums up my views pretty well, so I'll leave with some of my favorite lines/ideas from his work. I believe he is spot on when it comes to morality and religion issues.

"Religion is an illusion and it derives its strength from the fact that it falls in with our instinctual desires."

"Religious ideas have sprung from the same need as all the other achievements of culture: from the necessity for defending itself against the crushing supremacy of nature”

I use religion, daringly, as an overarching representation of everything else that has been discussed in this thread.

[Yojo]

And to Jerome, its no secret that increased education and left leaning political views are directly correlated =). In 2004, 87% of those with PhD's indentified themselves as liberal.

[Bioture]

There's a fundamental difference between hating the sin and loving the sinner, even if I realize this issue can be somewhat difficult to address without offending someone. When it comes to this issue, I would also like to point out that Jesus told us to remove the "planks" in our own eyes before helping someone else with the "speck" in theirs.

So I would like to ask everyone that points fingers to examine their own sexual indignations - and then make the claim that homosexuality is the one sin that makes hypocrites out of christians. And to the Christians, in my honest opinion, there are some of us who has made this topic way more severe than it actually is.

If I can make the claim that we're all bigoted regardless of the doctrines we follow, I think that there's still a long ways to go before we can stop pointing fingers at anyone and everyone besides ourselves.