Gap between Rich and Poor growing?

[Liquid Blue]

Do you think the gap between the rich and the poor is growing? Is the "middle class" dissapearing? I was talking to a friend briefly about this last night- prices for everything (America lawl) are going up, but the wages aren't. Things cost more and people are getting paid the same, what kind of effect do you think this is having on everyone?

[Eric is God]

I'll wait to see if a few people can make intelligent posts on this subject before I jump in. Don't want to dish out 5 pages if no one is interested

Well okay, I'll give the briefest opinion I can and back it up later.

"Do you think the gap between the rich and the poor is growing?"

Yes

"Is the middle class dissapearing?"

No, but the definition of middle class is changing

"Things cost more and people are getting paid the same, what kind of effect do you think this is having on everyone?"

I don't know if this is true across all industries. If it is, the main impact in the long run will not be a drop in purchasing power, so much as a drop in the savings rate. The average person will always chose saving less over spending less, which isn't necessarily bad for the economy... until everyone retires.

[Mantra-Slider]

its the political direction you have picked

[SEAL]

I agree with mantra. You have choosen the conservative party..

[T3l Ca7]

Wealth is a delusion, you think a house really worth a life's saving?

One day the bubble is going to bust, guess who is going to laugh at last?

Geez, I am so cynical nowadays

[Doc Flabby]

america owes the rest of the world several trillion dollers....You have a growing trade debt (importing more than u are exporting) and a growing government debt (all that spending on iraq and new nukes etc).

Basically you guys are spending too much on credit, and now having to pay it back one way or another...

Prices are going up because the doller is losing its value.

When prices go up. Wages have to go up to keep up. This leads to inflation + higher interest rates (they have increased every month for the last year in america). Higher interest rates make people go bankrupt...

If things continue and the debt keeps getting worse, america + the rest of the world could be heading for a global recession...

[Money]

if i was leader of usa i would just print more money!

[winipcfg]

if i was leader of usa i would just print more money!

Alas! Our problems are solved!

I personally don't think that there's a growing gap between the rich and the poor. It could be possible this gap could be growing compared to recent times, but not in the general history of modern society. I'm pretty sure mankind hit a low point when the kings were living in marble palaces while the vassals were outside starving, begging for food.

I think that the U.S. (I'm an American, I might add) is going to be punished eventually for all of the spending and believing the delusion that most Americans seem to have regarding money: that there are money trees somewhere, and you just have to wait for a new crop.

I think the Bush Administration has tone terrible things. I used to not care. Then I used to think Bush was actually ok. Now, though, I'm beginning to see the global reprecussions of the administration's actions, I think he's done a terrible job. The fact is, if we're speaking about American politics, I think the U.S. is sharply divided. I think that problems regarding the budget, debt, and all of these major issues once the two major parties come back together and get their crap in line. Until then, though, I see no hope.

Whether a world recession is coming, who knows. Anyone who knows anything about global economics sees the potential in China right now... the potential for huge growth, a massive labor force, and room to expand economically. China is going to undoubtedly be a superpower if not within our lifetimes, then our children's lifetimes. I think that the global situation will change significantly when the world is at the feet of a country that has been relatively untouched by the Western thought process.

But whatever. I'm going to eat my frozen pizza now.

[Capital Knockers]

It's true the gap is growing. You'd think we could learn from history, and try to solve these simple problems.. before they grow into multi-trillion dollar problems. A couple billion less on the military couldn't hurt could it? Maybe if it was put into education (world education, not fully americanized) these problems would be fixed by a future generation.

Instead I see the future generation being dumber than the last. The debt increasing even more, and Americans will continue to spend hundreds of billions of dollars on military.. because when it comes time to pay these multi-trillion dollar debts - you think they're going to? Thats why they can't stop spending on the military.. otherwise someone could come and actually take the money that is rightfully owed to them.

[404 Not Found]

With the tax code as well as other incentives directed at allowing the top percentile of America's Wealthiest to gain from tax breaks, there is an ever growing distance that has been growing on a yearly basis between the rich and poor in the U.S.

The middle class has the greatest burden of these taxes and penalties for the past decades and it has resluted in defining the middle class into sections of upper middle, middle and lower middle class.

The following publication links point out these differences and why they have happened.
The Associated Press, CBS News and The Economist are all legitimate news sources that may show a bit of light on this topic.

BTW...GWB had the Treasury Dept make more monies a few months back...what a great solution when it came to running short on cash to pay the salaries of the FED itself. We have started a recession btw....and note that the interest rates will go higher in the next 6 months. So what can the White House do next to divert attention from their lack of a fiscal and national security policy.

Associated Press

CBS News

The Economist

[404 Not Found]

It's true the gap is growing. You'd think we could learn from history, and try to solve these simple problems.. before they grow into multi-trillion dollar problems. A couple billion less on the military couldn't hurt could it? Maybe if it was put into education (world education, not fully americanized) these problems would be fixed by a future generation.

Instead I see the future generation being dumber than the last. The debt increasing even more, and Americans will continue to spend hundreds of billions of dollars on military.. because when it comes time to pay these multi-trillion dollar debts - you think they're going to? Thats why they can't stop spending on the military.. otherwise someone could come and actually take the money that is rightfully owed to them.

Interesting point on the monies owed to others from the US. Prior to Bush Sr. and Bush Jr....Clinton as well, the many countries in the world, including many in Europe, owed the US Trillions as well. It would seem that there will always be countries owing one another. The States didn't bully them, but rather dismissed the debts owed for many of these countries. Perhaps if the US would ask for the dismissed debts we would all equal out to owing nobody anything?

[404 Not Found]

The US Debt Clock

Check this site out to see how the brilliant minds of the US Govt (Repub's and Dem's) have F'd everyone inside and outside this nation. I have no favorites when it comes to political parties....especially when they seem to have no problems giving themselves 2.2% pay increases every year.

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/


Vote them all out!!!!

[Jerome Scuggs]

However, I think that the most important idea for me that makes the question of the free market so important is the realization that wealth is not to be identified with physical things, even though we need physical things and they are good and necessary to have. The ultimate riches, the ultimate wealth in the universe, is the human brain, the mind, not property. Probably the most dangerous idea ever proposed, one that would do the most damage to the poor, is what I call “distributionism” or “gapism.” These theories are based on the notion that the world is a finite body of goods. What is wrong is that they are ill-distributed. Thus, if we see someone with more, it necessarily means, according to the theory, that an injustice has been done to others who have less, no matter what the one or the other did in the past to bring about this situation. Therefore, the solution is to take away from the rich and give it to the poor, usually by governmental coercion. This is what socialism’s moral justification is all about. This theory fosters envy and really undermines the security of property and the homes for which it is designed.

“Gapism” is a variety of distributionism. It is a theory that argues that the “gap,” usually calculated in terms of GNP, between the rich and the poor is growing greater and greater. By itself, this growing gap is taken as incontrovertible evidence that the poor are being exploited or getting poorer. The solution therefore is to “narrow” the gap, as if that is a necessary sign of economic or moral well-being. The main problem with this theory is that it implies that because the “gap” between the rich and poor is growing, assuming it is growing, it must mean that the poor are getting poorer. It also implies that the cause of this increased poverty is the gap.

However, it is quite possible that a “gap” of some degree between rich and poor is in fact normal and even necessary in order that anything at all be improved or produced. Without incentives to change things and rewards for actual contributions, the fact is that little will be altered or accomplished. Likewise, it is quite possible that, even though there is a growing gap between rich and poor, that those with comparatively less are not in fact getting poorer. Everyone may instead be getting richer because the whole economy is growing. Indeed, this latter is largely the case. It is what modern economies are about. The only real way to help the poor on a reliable and sustainable basis is to have an economy that grows in all its sections at the same time so that every one becomes relatively richer. The current use of the word “globalism” to describe this phenomenon is not the best.

Generally speaking, I am of the opinion that if there is poverty in the world, as there is, it is not caused by riches or economic growth. These latter are the solutions to, not the causes of, poverty. We do know the general mechanics of producing wealth for everyone, but this does not mean that any economic or political system could achieve it. The fact is, the means of wealth production have to be invented and put into effect, into existence.

Wealth ultimately is not a thing, but it is a knowledge. There is not a “shortage” of material goods for the world population. There may be a shortage of ideas, or more likely, a failure, usually due to some theory of religion or politics or economics, to allow ideas that work to be put into effect. This brings me back to the socialist view, that no matter how noble and worthy its basic idea, it will work to create poverty. It will prevent ideas that will work to enrich everyone from being put into place and allowed to operate.

Ultimately, there should be a premium not on the idea that the poor should “be helped,” but on ways and ideas that allow them to help themselves, to have their own homes, businesses, power to give and make things. In contemporary history, the main causes of failure of such systems coming to be are governments and left wing ideologies, often with good intentions, that do not allow what needs to be done to happen.

So, if I were to answer the question about why I, even though a “practicing socialist,” am an advocate of a free market, it is because I think it is really the only way that the poor will be helped or the only way in which a rich society can remain free to deal with things beyond politics. We are in an anti-growth, ecologically oriented ideological world that is not based on the idea of the real abundance of nature and of the effects of mind with regard to things. The real enemies of the poor are those who maintain ideas or institutions, including governmental ones, that do not work.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig4/schall1.html

[ZeUs!!]

if i was leader of usa i would just print more money!

Quote preserved for life

[T3l Ca7]

Interesting point on the monies owed to others from the US. Prior to Bush Sr. and Bush Jr....Clinton as well, the many countries in the world, including many in Europe, owed the US Trillions as well. It would seem that there will always be countries owing one another. The States didn't bully them, but rather dismissed the debts owed for many of these countries. Perhaps if the US would ask for the dismissed debts we would all equal out to owing nobody anything?

No, you need debts. Issuing government bond is a way to determine the interest rates, or the discount rates.

Central/reserve banks usually have several billion dollars of other currencies (normally USD, Euro, Jap Yen, Aussie Dollars) for hedging purposes.

Having reasonable amount of debts is healthy and often encouraged.