Can a Brit explain this to me please?

[Sarien]

Thank God for America the land of the free. Now please just shut the fuck up, let's ban freedom and call it a day. Who the fuck would compare drunken driving (which is illegal in the UK too) to people owning a shitload of guns.
Ofcourse some people could get into a car to hit someone in anger, but I never seen anyone using their gun to go to work.

I like how you immediately associated it with the cars, instead of the alcohol like I specifically pointed to. Secondly irresponsibility is irresponsibility, no matter what they are using or abusing. Thirdly, I think I got to you a little too hard with the kankerhond comment, apologies if so. Was simply attempting to demonstrate that I am not your average redneck fool. Lastly, I will not "just shut the fuck up", I am discussing my viewpoints, and will continue to do so as long as I feel like it, or the discussion simply dies.

A good, if though slightly juvenile effort on your part.

[Epinephrine]

I'm not sure what your personal views are on the matter Sarien, but sometimes I find it ironic that most people who support gun 'freedom' are also against drugs. Funny thing, because your arguments can be applied to that as well. Actually your arguments can be applied to almost anything really. Although I'll admit that it is not an accurate analogy, if only you admit that alcohol is a bad analogy as well.

Alcohol has many uses, and it's intention is benign. Meanwhile the only purpose of a gun is to shoot things and KILL THINGS. That is it's meaning a priori. Comparing alcohol to guns is comparing apples and oranges.

Still it's a fact that many things in this world (and in America) are banned or controlled. There's a reason why things are usually banned or controlled, and that's because they are dangerous nor do they offer much 'good' to society. Gambling is fun, why is it banned in so many places? Pedophiles love child porn even if most of them don't make them, why is it illegal to own it? Me blaring loud music at 3am in the morning out the windows is fun, why would I get fined?

Society understands that certain things even though someone enjoys them can be harmful to everyone as a whole. I really don't believe guns help society in any respect, and the fact that most first world countries that have strict gun control DON'T have problems with freedom and DO have less problems with gun violence and also don't have people who are any less happy than Americans shows that the utility of guns is pretty low.

Individuals owning guns doesn't make society any safer. Individuals owning guns isn't going to stop an untrustworthy army from taking away your life. In my opinion, that argument is the single most used and irrelevant argument that exists.


Finally freedom of choice. Although I have touched on this, I will touch on it again. Owning a gun isn't exactly a god given right that humans are intrinsicly born with. A gun is an object, a tool, a thing made by people. Like any other potentially dangerous object it should be regulated according to it's level of danger. For instance, cigarettes and alcohol only require you to be a certain age. Meanwhile driving a car requires you to take a test, have good eyesight and not have certain medical conditions. Flying on an airplane meanwhile requires even more invasive limitations of freedoms including security checks, scanning of your belongings and proper identification. Working in a military lab requires extreme invasion of privacy and many people are discounted from such work.

In all of these examples, not everyone is allowed to have unlimited choice in doing these activities or using or owning these things. In all of these common every day examples, unlimited choice to do whatever you want does not exist. No matter what you think, everything in life has limits. The only thing that doesn't have limits is what goes on in your head, your ideas and the fact that you can express your ideas if you want, and to live a free life as long as you don't infringe on the rights of others. That is the central tenent of democracy and freedom.

There's nothing moral about having the 'right' to own a gun, or is there anything absolute about it. A gun is a tool, an object. Like all tools that are used, it needs to be regulated so that only certain people meeting certain requirements can use it. Because of the danger it presents, it should be extremely limited for the good of society.

And yes I understand that it's the ?2nd admendment in the American constituition, the right to bear arms. But that, like any other law is a written right, and it can be changed. Unlike universal human rights (see UN charter of Human Rights) which people around the world believe to be intrinsic, the right to own a gun is an American construct which I believe does not apply to today's world as it did when Jefferson first thought of it.

P.S. Drinking and driving IS ILLEGAL. If you see someone doing it, you SHOULD pressure them NOT to do it. Knowing someone is drinking and driving and allowing them to do it is negligance on your part as a citizen.

[winipcfg]

I have an idea for a new show. It's called Survivor: Afghanistan.

Each contestant is given one bullet, without a gun, and air-dropped in the middle of Afghanistan. To survive, they have to use their resources, a.k.a. one bullet, wisely. Last one alive wins.

Oh, and P.S.:

Meanwhile the only purpose of a gun is to shoot things and KILL THINGS. That is it's meaning a priori.

I'm pretty sure that wins the arguement. You can't really say too much about that, Sarien...

[Facetious]

Guns have a recreational purpose aside from killing things, though. Sarien owns guns and doesn't kill people (I hope).

Epi, what would you suggest our country do right now? Making guns illegal would ensure that no responsible gun owners had guns anymore, and all the evil gun owners would keep theirs. I agree with you on principle, it would be great if nobody had any guns, but what's the solution?

[Epinephrine]

Face, I offer no full solutions. I'm merely saying that it's a bad idea. I think it's important to first get people accustomed to the idea that having guns around for all isn't a good idea. And then the solutions will follow.

I guess one way to go about it would be to stop allowing people to sell new guns. And then slowly through police programs of voluntary returning of guns, phase them out. It's not perfect, but it's a start. Eventually the supply of guns will dry up.

I think the most important first step is to change attitudes. Eventually if enough people are against it then the problem can finally be tackled seriously. The second stop would be to stop allowing the selling of new guns, and then thirdly to collect older guns (even voluntary collection will at least stop domestic/accidental shootings). Fourthly would be to confiscate guns in circulation that haven't been collected, while making sure that guns aren't smuggled into the country. It's a huge undertaking, but if other countries can do it, America can too.

[Hero*]

how can a person support that kind of law and that punishment when the guy hasn't harmed anyone

i'll hold some atom bombs and some nerve gas, but as long as i dont use em, its okay, right?

[genocidal]

You're all missing the point. I conceded, and probably Sarien agrees, that guns like AK-47s and even handguns should be illegal as their main purpose/function is to kill people. Rifles and shotguns are used for sport, hunting, farming, etc. They should not be illegal just because some people don't know how to use them and because Canadians feel that people can't be trusted with what they trust their own government to have sole ownership over.

EDIT: Epinephrine saying owning guns means you'll kill something or do something you shouldn't and Hero saying that owning atom bombs is like owning a hunting rifle are way worse comparisons than Sarien's drunk driving analogy. I wonder what the numbers are like for alcohol-related deaths and gun-related deaths. Somebody can go look that up.

[Sarien]

I wonder what the numbers are like for alcohol-related deaths and gun-related deaths. Somebody can go look that up.

Murder Rate in 2004: 16,137
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offen...me/murder.html

Drunk Driving Fatalities in 2004: 16,694
http://www.alcoholalert.com/drunk-dr...tatistics.html


That's interesting, isn't it? Considering especially since that not all murders are going to be commited with guns. If you're all about the saving lives Epi, then right there is a way to save more lives than gun deaths in the US. I am assuming that it is of course, about saving lives, right?

Guns have a recreational purpose aside from killing things, though. Sarien owns guns and doesn't kill people (I hope).

Never have, and hope to crap I never will have to. I can't even begin to imagine what that'd do to a person.

I'm not sure what your personal views are on the matter Sarien, but sometimes I find it ironic that most people who support gun 'freedom' are also against drugs.

I'm not against drugs. I'd be against things like driving while you're stoned out of your gourd, but that's just about it. If you note my post before, I said I dislike drinking alcohol. I didn't say everyone had to stop on behalf. Quite the opposite.


Let me boil a few things down real fast. Epi, you're free to believe what you want about the situation. Rock on with your bad self, as long as it stays your belief. The very moment people just like you, that want to put your belief into action and impose your will on free people that won't put up with it, there will be 10 different kinds of ugly. You can count on that one.

While I am loathe to give ammo to the likes of some who would already call me a gun nut, I will say that no, I don't believe AK-47s nor handguns should be illegal. That stems from a technical knowledge of them both. People do hunt with handguns, people do most recreational shooting with handguns, and an AK-47 despite what most of have been told is no more dangerous than any other semi automatic rifle. It just looks dangerous, and politicians that wanted re-elected came up with that catchy "assault rifle" name to scare the bejesus out of people that don't know any damn better.

And Hero*, that is quite the silly comparison, but one I eventually expected to see. It's about on par with me editing someone's post and them calling me a Nazi. Congratulations, on your specious emotional argument. The very two items you named are supposed reasons Bush invaded Iraq in 2003. They're the reason the shit is hitting the fan with North Korea, and Iran. They're the reason when Pakistan and India both developed the bomb, that people thought the world was about to be over. You're going to ask me what I think when it is quite clear that entire nations wouldn't even begin to put up with, for one reason. I hate it when people try to manipulate me.

[Epinephrine]

Let me boil a few things down real fast. Epi, you're free to believe what you want about the situation. Rock on with your bad self, as long as it stays your belief. The very moment people just like you, that want to put your belief into action and impose your will on free people that won't put up with it, there will be 10 different kinds of ugly. You can count on that one.

Excuse me? When did I said I would come and impose my beliefs on you? I don't even live in your country you can do whatever you want in your country, but I still think you're wrong. Just as I think the death penalty is wrong, and not allowing gay marriage is wrong, I think allowing everyone to own guns is wrong.

If you think I'm going to come in and force you to do what I want, you're sorely mistaken. Anyway, isn't the whole idea of democracy the idea that people can talk about their beliefs and if society feels that something is wrong, they can vote against it and specifically do something about it? If your country ever sees it's wrong about guns and votes to change it, does that mean you will not respect the will of the people, and make '10 different types of ugly' with all those guns you own?

And I'll 'rock on with my bad self' whatever that means. I believe this thread started with you critizing the Brits about their gun control laws and now you're saying other people can't critize America's LACK of gun control laws? Pretty hypocritical to me.

Oh yes, what you said:

A perfectly illustrated example argument for the ownership of guns, although that was completely not your intention. In a situation where gun ownership is legal, then a person is free to own a gun, or not, according to their own desires, needs, wants, whims, etc. according to their own principles. Freedom of choice. Your way, removes that freedom of having that choice available. No matter how you try to wrap it up, when you start removing freedoms from a people, generally the first one you try to get rid of, is their ability to fight back.

Your entire premise is based on the fact that owning a gun is somehow the only way to fight back. I think if America ever turns into a place where the army and police services are so corrupt that individual citizens have to rely on individual gun ownership for their freedom, then Americans will have a LOT more things to worry about than whether or not they own a gun or not. Actually if it ever gets like that they'd probably ban ownership of guns anyway so there's no difference anyway.

[genocidal]

But the point is, were things to ever get that way in the US it would be impossible to ban and eliminate guns as they are prevalent. In Canada, however, the citizenry wouldn't have guns and would be more at the will of their government.

Sure we're talking fantasy-land right now but the US was founded on checks and balances within government and within society. The right to bear arms is one check on government violence.

[Sarien]

Excuse me? When did I said I would come and impose my beliefs on you? I don't even live in your country you can do whatever you want in your country, but I still think you're wrong. Just as I think the death penalty is wrong, and not allowing gay marriage is wrong, I think allowing everyone to own guns is wrong.

You didn't say that you would, and I never meant that. I'm pointing out for about the fiftieth time, that when there is allowed a choice, people will make the choice that is right for them. You don't see it that way for guns. So what I'm trying to say (maybe I got it wrong) is that for people to put that thought into action is going to end badly, for a whole lot of people.

Anyway, isn't the whole idea of democracy the idea that people can talk about their beliefs and if society feels that something is wrong, they can vote against it and specifically do something about it?

Absolutely. If you think I'm upset or saying you can't have your beliefs, I am not even close to it. I think you're wrong, just like you think I'm wrong. But we both have our beliefs and I'm plenty cool with that. I wouldn't wear a gun into your house, any more than I would want you to come into mine and say I couldn't have mine. I think we both have a kind of wary respect for the other at this point, rather than thinking up stupid labels for each other, like gun nut, or naive pacifist. That's a good thing, and I'll continue to discuss it and argue my point of view as long as you care to continue, because I seriously believe I'm right.

If your country ever sees it's wrong about guns and votes to change it, does that mean you will not respect the will of the people, and make '10 different types of ugly' with all those guns you own?

I don't really feel comfortable discussing this. I will say this and only this, on that subject. I don't know what I'd do. I'd hate it, and feel like my country deserted me. I think that in the greater scheme of things it'd be much easier to simply leave and go to a different country that did share my views, and set up citizenry there. But I have no idea for sure, and I sincerely hope that I never ever have to find out.

And I'll 'rock on with my bad self' whatever that means.

Don't take that personal, it's nothing at your expense. It's just something I have a tendency to say when I mean "Keep on being you." As in, keep on being you and believing what you will, as long as you don't try to force it on me.

I believe this thread started with you critizing the Brits about their gun control laws and now you're saying other people can't critize America's LACK of gun control laws? Pretty hypocritical to me.

Absolutely not. Dozens of people have citicized me and America's laws. I'll continue to argue my viewpoint, but I've never told anyone they couldn't feel the way they do. That's not how I work, so I don't see how that's hypocritical.

Your entire premise is based on the fact that owning a gun is somehow the only way to fight back.

No, my premise is that choice is good for people. Absence of choice is therefore bad. That was one paragraph amongst many.

This is what I'm trying to get across to you. I've loaded it and sent it flying over the line to try to get you and as many others as possible to see it, over and over. Again. I can understand that you might not like guns, you might not be comfortable with guns. You might think they are evil bad creations. I do not. I like guns. I like to shoot, I like to own guns. I most especially love old military rifles, and to shoot them. I love history, and I am by no means an idiot, nor a danger to my neighbors.

We could live beside one another for years, and it never be an issue. (Where I live beside means about 1/4-1/2 mile, btw) I'll stay out of your business, if you stay out of mine, that kind of thing. You know, neighborly.

Now if you tell me that for the good of society as a whole, I should lose my collection, that citizens shouldn't be trusted enough to decide how to live their lives? I'm going to be insulted, absolutely. It's not an insult to my patriotism or to my country, if that's what you're thinking. That's an insult to me personally. That's why I wrote this in the post above:

I've been avoiding replying because I didn't want to post a reply that was born out of anger. Gonna do my best.

Because I know you didn't mean it as a personal insult. But it is. It is personally offensive to me, and I can't help it. I know it's not meant to be, but that doesn't change it.

A good solid difference in how we're looking at things Epi is:
You want less people to be hurt or killed, so you want less guns to be in the world for people to do bad things with.

I want less people to be hurt or killed, but I want more guns. I want guns of all shapes and sizes and their varying cool factor. I just want people to stop doing bad things with the ones that exist.

If we lived near one another, and you didn't know how, and wanted to learn, I'd be glad to teach you to shoot, to unload, and make safe virtually any kind of weapon you might stumble across. I'd do it because I believe in it. I don't care if you never wanted to hold a gun in your life again, I don't care if you believe I shouldn't even have mine. I believe in gun safety, and I'd teach you just because knowing might just save your life someday. And you'd better believe that every accidental shooting I've ever heard of bothers me more than the most vile of murders. Accidental shootings come from ignorance, and they don't have to. Guns can be made and kept safely, and there isn't any reason why a person can't take the time to learn to handle and make a gun safe.

[Doc Flabby]

guns in the uk is fine...its only for rich twits who go out shooting wildlife...and all have a jolly good laugh.

guns in america is scary....Most people are fat or retarded or both. Only the retards seem to be allowed to own guns. Maybe thats why all the other people all so fat, protection from bullets its all starting to make sence....

america still has the death penatly.

This reflects the cheapness america values human life reflects the immaturity of your society. Thats why guns in america are a bad thing, you dont understand the damage they can do.

[sexy wooden spoon]

In England we dont like weirdo's hording illegal weapons. Why?...We dont want to wait for the day they go on a killing rampage. So whats the solution?

If you have illegal guns, u get them removed and off to prison you go. This may be hard for you to understand but there is a way of preventing this....Dont horde illegal weapons!!

I dont understand why this is a problem, i can go to the supermarket without fear of some nitwit carrying a gun who wants to shoot me and steal my £5.50 trainers.

[winipcfg]

guns in the uk is fine...its only for rich twits who go out shooting wildlife...and all have a jolly good laugh.

guns in america is scary....Most people are fat or retarded or both. Only the retards seem to be allowed to own guns. Maybe thats why all the other people all so fat, protection from bullets its all starting to make sence....

america still has the death penatly.

This reflects the cheapness america values human life reflects the immaturity of your society. Thats why guns in america are a bad thing, you dont understand the damage they can do.

All of those statements were pretty stupid.

First off, the comment saying that "most people are far or retarded or both" has nothing to do with the arguement. That doesn't even relate to gun control; unless, of course, you're trying to seriously suggest that Americans are "so fat" because we need "protection from bullets." The typical "lol fat americans" joke is pretty dead.

Second, not everyone agrees with the death penalty. I haven't seen any polls or anything, but I would venture to say that maybe a little more than half of Americans think the death penalty is right. In any case, what does that even have to do with anything in the first place? You suddenly went from talking about how Americans are fat to how America still has the death penalty.

Ah, yes, and finally, the arguement that America has an immature society. You seriously can't think that's true. The only way America is somehow more immature in terms of a society is by age. How are you measuring maturity anyways? The invisible Flabby scale?

I suggest you come up with some real arguements and points before posting worthless garbage.

[Doc Flabby]

How are you measuring maturity anyways? The invisible Flabby scale?

age has nothing to do with it.

You guys have problems:

Obsession with image - omfg my boobies are too small.
Sexually Repressed - omfg theres a boob on tele and i got a semi im gonna sue.
Software patents - i would write something here but i'd get sued
RIAA/MPAA - omg people are downloading our crappy music and music off the evil internet lets sue them and make them p2p (pay 2 play).
TV - omg omg omg - commerical break - omg omg - commercial break - omg
Abortion - they killing babies - lets stop them stop them, lock up those evil doctor baby killers
Drink - drink is bad lets protect our kids and only people over 21 can drink our weakass alcohol
Drugs - omg omg omg now the kids cant buy alchol they are taking drugs - lets stick them in prision.
Guns - omg omg i can't watch tell, drink, get drugs, get laid this is crap fuck it im gonna shoot up my skool that'll teach the fuckers.

now dont get me started on foreign policy lol