You were wrong you fat fuck Michael Moore

[genocidal]

Gun crimes in schools happen elsewhere besides the United States. This appears to continue to happen around the world. Most recently coming to mind is the Canada incident and now this.

A masked, 18-year-old gunman stormed his former high school in northwestern Germany Monday, shooting five people and setting off smoke bombs before he was found dead with pipe bombs strapped to his body, police said.

Witnesses said the gunman _ identified by Germany media and witnesses as Sebastian Bosse _ parked his car nearby the school in Emsdetten, near the Dutch border, and opened fire as soon as he entered the school yard. He wounded five people and sent students running in all directions.

Students at the school said Bosse was an aloof individual who played violent computer games and had said he wanted to join the army.

Katja Weber, a 17-year-old student at the school, said he always wore a black hat and coat. "He was an absolute loner," Weber told reporters outside the school. "Guns were his hobby."

Lesson to parents: beat your kids until they have friends and don't give them guns. Seriously though, do you think video games and TV do have an impact on some kids' lives that contribute to incidents like this? I think you'd have to be naive to say that they don't; but is it worth banning them for the fucked up few?

I'm sure there are more incentive-driven rather than prohibitive measures to be taken to prevent things like this from persistently happening. It's obviously not a cultural American problem but rather a worldwide social problem.

[Mantra-Slider]

still tho. The more guns, the more incidents like this.

[genocidal]

The more guns, the more freedom. Eat shit you liberal socialist bastards.

[Vykromond]

I've actually come fully around on gun control. I'm one of those "die-hard liberal socialist bastards" but I think the Second Amendment is extremely important. I think allowing any citizen to possess a gun breaks up the state's monopoly on violence (I know I'm corrupting Weber's term beyond belief here but the words themselves are the best ones available & it should still be clear what I mean), which is A Good Thing should the state need to be overthrown. The possibility of effective mass violent revolution as a counterbalance to supreme power concentrated in the state or the military is an important social tension IMHO and implementing extremely strict, government-controlled anti-gun possession measures disrupts that balance.

That was kind of vague and heady, did it make sense? It's something I'm still parsing since until recently I was for stringent gun control without really pondering it too much.

[genocidal]

My response was mostly a gibe at the expense of smug Euros like Mantra; I tend to be a liberal socialist too but wouldn't give up my 2nd Amendment for anything.

Gun control is one of the few issues I actually care about but don't have a strong opinion one way or the other on. I profess to be against it mostly, but I support handgun control (even though I'll own handguns until it's illegal and probably even thereafter because they're fun). Handguns seem more of a public safety concern to me because of ease of concealment - and since my support of the 2nd Amendment is mainly founded upon what you said about possibility for revolt then that makes sense to me.

We had a good discussion, I feel, about it here a little while ago.

Heh well here's what I thought a couple month's ago. I don't think much has changed since then but I'm reconsidering my stance on automatic weaponry. I was vehemently against them for most of my life but am starting to wonder if distinguishing between an automatic and semi-automatic rifle makes my argument about the feasibility of revolution less coherent and more of a red herring; that is to say, I'm just trying to make myself feel good by saying that but what I really think is that I just like guns and want to own some but am honestly pro-gun control.

[Vykromond]

I pretty much agree exactly with what you said in that thread and thanks for forwarding me to it. As for your own personal confusion as to whether your argument is genuinely motivated or not, I can luckily sidestep that in my own case since I've never owned a gun and likely never will.

[Sarien]

I still disagree with that stance on handguns, gen.

Though I'm pretty recognized here as owning guns, and also being pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, registered democrat, etc etc.

[tugs]

I think that no matter how you look at it, the 2 strongest similarities between school shootings are: school, and guns.
this seems a stupid thing to say because they are the 2 criteria for the grouping, but i think looking at other causes for the violence(like video games) is a bit strange.

so the if the question is "how can this be stopped?" i would think looking at changing one of these 2 things should be top priority.

guns: being canadian-ish, and brought up by a first generation immigrant from holland (read more or less calvinist values) i don't see much of an issue with gun registration or limitation. if the argument is that of your second amendment (the people should be able to protect their political power by force, if i understand it right) the one question i would ask is: do you really expect your democratic system to fail that completely?

if you are unwilling to part with your free access to guns, that would leave the other part that needs changing.

school: i'm always confused about why people don't consider changing the school system. there are a huge number of reasons why schooling should be different than it is, but pertaining to violence, i would say: why did anyone ever think it'd be a good idea to take (in my opinion)the most unstable demographic, (people going through hormone crap, people that simply haven't experienced much of life yet) why is it a good idea to put them all together with pretty much no supervision at all, and expect them to be fine? subjectively, being a person that doesn't go to bars regularly, the only fights i've been in or seen were in high school.

in conclusion to that last part, my argument really is that schools are simply a violent place, and i don't see why that isn't recognized or changed.


i seem to have gone on for a bit, but isn't your criticism of michael moore a few years late?

[Spider]

You Americans are fucking crazy.

[404 Not Found]

The problems that stem from gun violence are for the most part, not violent acts by registered gun owners, but rather the illegal guns that can be found on the streets.

To take away guns from those that are legal owners that register and take the time to follow the law, your putting the illegal owners of which are usually the criminal element, on the streets to comit more crime and murder.

There is no level playing field regardless.

As for the wack job kids that take their fathers guns to school, that is the problem of that gun owner, usually the parent. If a child kills someone in a school shooting, then the owner of that gun, regardless if the kid stole it from the parent, should be the one also held responsible for that crime with the shooter.

Such a topic that will never find a conclusion due to the lobbyists in Washington and the NRA itself. I see nothing wrong with hunting rifles and hand guns if they are licensed and obtained legally.

Similar to Vykromond, I will never own another gun...no need. Had one years ago, but there was no reason to keep it so I sold it back to a local gun shop.

[Spider]

Fuucccking crazzzyyyy.

[Reaver]

The real shame about it is that it starts here but it definately doesn't end here. If they start by taking away the right to bear arms it would all but disallow us our right to upheave the government should we disagree with it. More importantly than that, you should have the right to effectively defend yourself should the need arise. Beyond the aspect of gun control, if they were to take away the right to bear arms, what's stopping them from taking away other rights? I personally believe it would be a snowball or domino effect in that once you take that away, there's not much stopping the government from taking more and more away. Slowly and surely I've noticed freedom going away, but you can't have a higher level of security without taking away some of the freedom unfortunately.
As for video games, regardless of whether violent video games are around, Im certain people would still do what they do. How do I know this? To believe that video games are the sole responsibility for why people do things such as this would lend one to believe that before violent video games, there were none of these incidents. Which we know to be false. However, to believe that violent video games don't contribute minute amounts is also naive. There is no real solution, even if violent video games are taken away these incidents will happen. And it would still be completely ignoring the fact that it's not fair for the rest of the people that can properly handle the balance between video game and real world violence. Then again, there is no guarantee that the world is fair.

[Bioture]

well in the fat guy's defense, he didn't say there was absolutely NO incidents in other countries or possible incidents.

Might be wrong though. Only seen the film once.

[Liquid Blue]

I think that no matter how you look at it, the 2 strongest similarities between school shootings are: school, and guns.

I think it would be better to pinpoint the factors even more- the age group and the social situations in which this is constantly happening in. What we keep having are situations where teenagers in middle-income suburbia get a hold of guns (usually their parent's guns), and go to the places where they've experienced mental/physical trauma (schools) and take out their anger on innocent bystanders.

So the two strongest similarities are suburban teenagers and lack of communication.

All teenagers deal with shit at one point or another in school- high school, middle school, elementary school, whatever. What is a recurring trend is that these kids don't have anyone they can talk to about their problems, don't trust their own families enough to share what's hurting them, don't have a source to communicate their feelings to. So they take the problems they are dealing with at high school (bullies, humiliation, etc), couple it with the fact that they feel like they have no one they can talk to or turn to for help, and get angry about their situation. They get angry and feel helpless and decide that the only way they can solve things is through violence.

So when they go through their schools shooting up students and teachers they've never even met, killing innocents and destroying lives and families of hundreds of people, where do the parents of these kids turn? Do they take responsibility, and look at themselves and the family-life that was going on in the house? No of course not, they look for a scapegoat. They blame Metal and video games, because it's alot easier to condemn someone else than it is to swallow your pride and admit that you've failed as a parent. It's alot easier to point the finger at a faceless video game and shift the blame than it is to think back and realize that you could count the number of times you've had a chat with your kid about his life in the past 6 months on one hand.

Communication is the key, and Suburban teenagers are the locks.

[Galleleo]

Didn't read everything, don't have the time right now, but yea, I am against possession of guns. If you DO have to have a gun, make a strict control procedure about it (any convictions and whatnot) and limit it to hunting rifles..