open mail without warrant

[Blueblaze]

Man, I don't want to be argumentative Blueblaze, but I really need to clear some things up for you. Your first assumption is that everyone who gets mad at our loss of rights is asking the gov't for freebies. I don't know these people. We get "free police, hospital, fire, military" but we have to pay taxes for them? That kind of makes them, well, not free. And I don't know anyone who is asking the gov't for "free healthcare, free college grants, free food, free land, free insurance" there certainly isn't a great debate for the gov't giveaway you seem to be hearing about. Healthcare is becoming privatized, welfare is too, and free college grants? From this gov't? No one I know struck that deal. Free food and free land? You have heard of people whining for free food and land? Um, ok. Free insurance? What are all those insurance companies taking all my money for, then?

Everything the gov't does do for us is inevitably paid for by us, thats what taxes are. So when you say you think the gov't is "responsible for your needs and desires", well yes, thats why governments are created, right? Thats why 35-40% of my paycheck goes to taxes, which doesn't count property tax, sales tax, state tax or toll bridges or all the other taxes. I can't think of anything I would want my money to go toward more than my own health coverage. But I don't get it.

That all aside, I'm boggling at the thought process that leads you to think that because I pay for all those "free" things with taxes, that I should "lose some rights". This definately requires some more explanation, because in this country, it has never been a given or accepted. The constitution was created for the sole purpose of denying the loss of rights. The fact that the gov't is involved in my life (how couldn't it be?) doesn't quite convince me that I should "lose some right". Your big daddy analogy doesn't apply. If you pay rent (taxes) then you get privacy. The gov't doesn't own house America. It was created by us and is composed of us. In America you do NOT lose rights, you DO get absolute privacy, and you do NOT want the gov't to be overly involved in your life, you ARE the gov't. We the People, remember? It's not some seperate entity providing all those things you listed, YOU provide them to yourself through taxes and service. And you don't look through your children's mail.

What do you have to hide? Are you a terrorist?

The point is, I think our security is pretty decent considering what has happened, and if this decreases my chances of being blown up by terrorists, then I'm all for it, as its not that big of a sacrifice. Its not like they personally go through every letter. In your life time, unless you really are connected to some terrorist organization, you'll never have a letter opened.

[404 Not Found]

I said this in my original post, but will note this again, especially when one see's the problems that the U.S.P.S. have had in the past decades.

I see this move as nothing more than a means for private companies such as Federal Express, U.P.S., TNT, Airborne Express and many others to make more monies, due to fears over Big Brother invading their personal freedoms. A warrant would be required to obtain mail from private sources...but not the U.S.P.S. Interesting as to why this was done and how will this actually help our security.

This signing will not help. in fact it will only hurt the U.S.P.S. It is really not a security measure, but a billboard for everyone to stop using the U.S. Mail and fiond other sources as noted in my above quote. It's all just bad publicity & poor marketing.

[Galleleo]

At least the US and media got Blueblaze scared enough for him to accept everything they do.

A large portion of what is being done now days is scaring people with all this terrorist threats and stuff, sure there might be some terrorist threat. But I don't really worry about it, the terrorists are not stupid and if they really want something to happen, then most likely it will happen. I can't be arsed to worry about it a lot and to give up certain rights to "protect" me better.

[Ephemeral]

More fear mongering, honestly 404 why do you keep coming in here and stirring the pot? You are sounding like Spinsanity. We get that you hate Bush and that you think that Bush is the worst President ever. Write some letters to your congressman and/or get proactive in politics if you want change. Coming in here and posting information that either is unconfirmed or half spun is serving what purpose? Everyone has the same access to political Blogs as you do. Simply go find the Democratic Blogs/forums and hang with like-minded people or go to Republican Blogs/forums and fight it out with them.

The truth is that neither the Republicans or Democrats have an monopoly on assholes. Nor does any country. There are a million things that can be improved in the USA, and many of them have nothing to do with Bush. Under Clinton, there were more people working for the Dept of Agriculture than there were farmers in the country. There was an average of 1.6 vehicles per person in the Dept. of Energy. He was getting sucked off in the White House by subordinates. He lied under oath. Who cares? Shit, I voted for Nixon and he turned out to be a crook.

[Blueblaze]

At least the US and media got Blueblaze scared enough for him to accept everything they do.

A large portion of what is being done now days is scaring people with all this terrorist threats and stuff, sure there might be some terrorist threat. But I don't really worry about it, the terrorists are not stupid and if they really want something to happen, then most likely it will happen. I can't be arsed to worry about it a lot and to give up certain rights to "protect" me better.

Honestly, I care, but I don't care if terrorists come and blow up this nation, as I don't have that attachment to this earth. I'm just saying, every nation has its woes, America isn't perfect, nor is any other country. Overall, I think America is doing pretty well, I mean, everyone here gets more than enough food to live on, most everyone has a car to drive, a house to live in, clean water to drink, a computer to waste your life on, internet to multiply the wasting, etc... On average, an American probably has more material things and services allowed to him than any other citizen of any other country. Considering we have 300 million people as well, we by far have the most freedoms and stability. Serious, would you rather live in India? You can't even take the mass-transit system without a seriously high percentage of getting killed. For 300 million people, no matter what you say about Bush, or the government, this nation is doing a pretty good job considering all that has been going on. If you have a problem with your privacy being violated, talk to Ted Kennedy or move to another country.

[Squeezer]

I don't know about you specifically, but its funny how people will get all mad whenever the government does something that goes into their private affairs, but they want the government to give them free healthcare, free college grants, free food, free land, free insurance, free, etc... you get the point. As well, you get free police, hospital, fire, military, etc.. Obviously you have to pay taxes for it, but I think that is worth it rather than you actually having to manage every single possible thing. If you had a heart attack or stroke, you would be soley responsible to help yourself out, couldn't go to or use the hospital. The point is, since people want the government to be so involved in being responsible for your needs and desires, then you have to give up freedoms, such as, having absolute complete privacy with your mail. For me, thats a small price to pay knowing that I've got a quarter million troops defending us just incase China wants to send over their army, or some other nation wants to try and bomb us. When you ask the government to be this involved in your life, you lose some rights. It works the same way just like someone living under your parents house, since they provide shelter, food, etc.. for you, you lose some of your rights (if they are good parents anyway). If I was providing shelter, food, clothing, etc... for my child, I wouldn't let them smoke pot or drink beer or carry weapons, they lose that right, because they are being provided things by me. You win some, you lose some. Thats what you get for presidents like FDR socializing America.

Thanks for making assumptions you cunt. As it turns out, the only thing I get from the govt. is assistance for college, which I pay back twofold in taxes anyways. But yes, we do have a welfare system that tons of people use. However, I fail to see where rights of privacy (outlined in the constitution) are at all interconnected to America's social programs. Just because we as a country refuse to let people starve and freeze on the streets doesn't mean that we don't have to allow them the little bit of privacy they can have. Like I said, if we keep letting the government intercede into our private matters, then before we know it, they'll be involved in all of our matters.

[Vatican Assassin]

More fear mongering, honestly 404 why do you keep coming in here and stirring the pot? You are sounding like Spinsanity. We get that you hate Bush and that you think that Bush is the worst President ever. Write some letters to your congressman and/or get proactive in politics if you want change. Coming in here and posting information that either is unconfirmed or half spun is serving what purpose? Everyone has the same access to political Blogs as you do. Simply go find the Democratic Blogs/forums and hang with like-minded people or go to Republican Blogs/forums and fight it out with them.

The truth is that neither the Republicans or Democrats have an monopoly on assholes. Nor does any country. There are a million things that can be improved in the USA, and many of them have nothing to do with Bush. Under Clinton, there were more people working for the Dept of Agriculture than there were farmers in the country. There was an average of 1.6 vehicles per person in the Dept. of Energy. He was getting sucked off in the White House by subordinates. He lied under oath. Who cares? Shit, I voted for Nixon and he turned out to be a crook.

Hey Emphemeral, look at the topic of this dicussiong forum: "Pub Chat General Discussion forum. Conspiracy theories..." So can we talk about things you don''t agree with? Unconfirmed? I think a senator responding to the president doesn't need further confirmation, its happening. Please tell me who is this great confirmer we need to hear from before we know things are ACTUALLY true, or should we wait until we're all in a concentration camp and then we could go all go, "Ya, this is probably confirmed, but I'll have to check with Empemeral to make sure." Blueblaze, that old adage "if you have nothing to hide you shouldn't worry" is really bad man. Do you want some cop checking your pockets all the time? Even if you have nothing to hide, you are still being treated like a criminal. A small price to pay for more security? How secure do you feel when someone else has the power to stick his thumb up your ass. I'd rather live in a state of love and trust than one where I can be checked any time for no reason, thats sounds fascist.

[Vatican Assassin]

Honestly, I care, but I don't care if terrorists come and blow up this nation, as I don't have that attachment to this earth. I'm just saying, every nation has its woes, America isn't perfect, nor is any other country. Overall, I think America is doing pretty well, I mean, everyone here gets more than enough food to live on, most everyone has a car to drive, a house to live in, clean water to drink, a computer to waste your life on, internet to multiply the wasting, etc... On average, an American probably has more material things and services allowed to him than any other citizen of any other country. Considering we have 300 million people as well, we by far have the most freedoms and stability. Serious, would you rather live in India? You can't even take the mass-transit system without a seriously high percentage of getting killed. For 300 million people, no matter what you say about Bush, or the government, this nation is doing a pretty good job considering all that has been going on. If you have a problem with your privacy being violated, talk to Ted Kennedy or move to another country.

Ya we all knoe every American has food and internet, there's no homeless here! Go to any city and look around Blueblaze. Yes we're better off than other countries, but a main reason for that is that we are gauarnteed the right to speak our minds and check our gov't. THAT IS AMERICA. So will you guys please never say "go toanother country if you don;t like it." That is just such a horrible argument it sickens me. This is fucking America the only country where you are guaranteed eedom of speech. It is the 1st ammendment, I suggest you value it, or we won't have to move to India, we will already be there. Hopefully, 404 isn't limiting his discussion to this forum, of course there are political blogs and senators he can talk to. But we have a right to bring these things up here too. When you or Ephemeral talk about things which don't interest us, we don't tell you to gtfo, we just ignore them. Please have the same courtesy.

[404 Not Found]

Am I stirring the pot? I just thought that the reasons for this signing are ridiculous. I am not totally against this, but at the same time when we hear how the U.S. Postal Service is on the brink of collapse due to other sources of parcel delivery, it made me wonder.

If anything, it will be a boostto the private sectors delivery services that will not have to abide to the signing set forth for the U.S.P.S., they will need warrants for DHL, FedEX and all the others.

It was a topic of discussion Ephemeral and nothing more.

Yes I hate Bush...duh! But what I hate more than Bush are the policies set forth that outsource and restrict others from jobs and wages so that some big fat cat can scrutinize others for more profit at the same time destroying an economy and environment. Not that this signing would do this, but add them all up and it starts to make a dent.

I want to also note that I do write to my congressmen and Senators often Ephemeral. I also run the local Polls in my district. I vote and voice myself whenever I can on something I feel strongly about, be it the PTA, local and national elections. Should it be in the forums? I think the fact that many reply and discuss the topic proves that it is something worthy to look at. But that is why it is a public forum that is open for discussion and debate.

Me and you are both old timers obviously. I was around during the days of Nixon as well.

Do you think High Schools discuss anything on this level? I know that they do not after reading and seeing the work my Nephews and Step-son have done in H.S. It is all sugar coated crap bosting how great our History and Political structure is, with the outcome being a test that a child does nothing more than study for so that a District will get the monies guaranteed from the No Child Left Behind act. Odd how so many of our bnations teachers dislike this act, as they no longer can teach off the topics set forth in fear that they will lose the Govt. monies for making the grade so to say!

If this thread makes one person go to CNN, their daily newspaper or any other news source, rather than the History or Political Science books they have in school, then it did its job.

Perhaps we should be like N. Korea though and censor everything and paint the picture of the world according to one persons theory and dreams?

Sorry if I stirred the pot...sorry if it made people think and possibly question the reasons for why, as well as what possible actions of what will come from such an issue. We really do not need any more people thinking for themselves or openly discussing a recent political signature for something that I felt would hurt the U.S.P.S. rather than help; not to leave out doing nothing for additional security as it boasts it will do!

I will stop my rants on political topics as it seems it offends to many and we definately do not want the possibility of discussion and debate.

[Blueblaze]

If this thread makes one person go to CNN, their daily newspaper or any other news source, rather than the History or Political Science books they have in school, then it did its job.

1. Public school system is trash, point blank truth.

2. If this thread makes one person go to CNN, or their daily newspaper, or any other news source, its been an utter failure. But if it makes a person go to several sources with different viewpoints, then its done a good job. Every source of media is biased, CNN, NBC, BBC, FOX, etc... all are biased towards an opinion, which is why its crucial to take your opinions from multiple sources, otherwise you have foolish Republicans and Democrats who vote without critical thinking.

[Aquatiq]

Isn't that.. what he said?

[genocidal]

1. Public school system is trash, point blank truth.

My public school education was phenomenal - they teach you to do your own research and not just accept what is shoved down your throat. I'm willing to bet you went to some private Christian school that wasn't accredited and think that because the Bible is taught there then it is much more educational. There's no real point in arguing with you about your personal philosophy, since usually people like you can't be reasoned with, but your slander can be called on to point out how much of an idiot you are still.

[Ephemeral]

Hey Emphemeral, look at the topic of this dicussiong forum: "Pub Chat General Discussion forum. Conspiracy theories..." So can we talk about things you don''t agree with? Unconfirmed? I think a senator responding to the president doesn't need further confirmation, its happening. Please tell me who is this great confirmer we need to hear from before we know things are ACTUALLY true, or should we wait until we're all in a concentration camp and then we could go all go, "Ya, this is probably confirmed, but I'll have to check with Empemeral to make sure." Blueblaze, that old adage "if you have nothing to hide you shouldn't worry" is really bad man. Do you want some cop checking your pockets all the time? Even if you have nothing to hide, you are still being treated like a criminal. A small price to pay for more security? How secure do you feel when someone else has the power to stick his thumb up your ass. I'd rather live in a state of love and trust than one where I can be checked any time for no reason, thats sounds fascist.

My point was about 404 posting 3 topics in a row railing on about basically the same thing.

And I take offense at your comment "Ya, this is probably confirmed, but I'll have to check with Empemeral to make sure." I thought we had a pretty good relationship, I am unsure why you would make a dickhead comment like that, especially when you missed my point. I have a right to voice an opinion too.

[Galleleo]

On average, an American probably has more material things and services allowed to him than any other citizen of any other country. Considering we have 300 million people as well, we by far have the most freedoms and stability. Serious, would you rather live in India? You can't even take the mass-transit system without a seriously high percentage of getting killed.

Are you serious, have you ever gone like outside or anything? Firstly, most material things and services that Americans have people in Western countries, Canada, England, France, Germany, Netherlands, Italy, etc.. all have as well. Second, everyone in the Netherlands has health insurance and stuff. Not everyone in America does, if you can't afford it you don't get it.

And you think the percentage in America isn't high of getting killed? Looked at the percentage's of murders in the big city's in America? It's not like you are so frikken safe there. So please don't act as if America is a far better country then any other country in the world, cause it isn't.

This is fucking America the only country where you are guaranteed eedom of speech.

And again.. are you serious? Almost all Western countries have freedom of speach, I know that we have it in our constitution, I bet Canada, England, France, Italy all have it in their constitution.

Where do all you people suddenly get off that America is the only good free country in the world, and that somehow living outside of America makes you live in a country ruled by a dictator where you have no rights, benefits or material things.

And if you are gonna talk about numbers of people, with your 300 million.. India and China aren't doing that bad considering they are both above the 1 billion mark.

[Vatican Assassin]

And again.. are you serious? Almost all Western countries have freedom of speach, I know that we have it in our constitution, I bet Canada, England, France, Italy all have it in their constitution.

Where do all you people suddenly get off that America is the only good free country in the world, and that somehow living outside of America makes you live in a country ruled by a dictator where you have no rights, benefits or material things.

Ya, my bad, I got myself caught up ih the patriotic movement and thought I saw Jesus give me the nod. Ephemeral, I'm sorry I took such an agro stance, I do consider you a friend. But twice now, with the Somalia bombings and with this parcel service, you have insinuated that they are in some way "unconfirmd". I asked you then, without being so rude, and I ask you again now, who do we need to site as a source for you to consider a poltical social event as confirmed. This particular instance we have a letter written by a Senator to the President, and a Signing Statement which he made on Dec 20, 06. These are undisputable facts. If you are saying that 404's ideas about the postal service is going to lose business due to these, then yes, that is obviously unconfirmed. But you'll have to be more specific if you tell someone that their post is unconfirmed. Obviously I take these issues very seriously, and I don't like it when people tell others not to post them here at all. Even if they did 3 in a row. These days, 3 isn't that many. There is clearly a movement to curb civil liberties, that cannot be disputed. Whether they are helpful, needed, power-grabs, or should be made legal, is disputable.