Philosophies On Consciousness/Reality

[deathking]

What do you guys think is real?

Cogito ergo sum.

I personally think that it is impossible for an objective view of reality to exist. In order for something to exist it must be perceived.

Esse est percipi...

You can never know for certain that there is anything outside your own head, therefor the only type of truth you can ever know for certain is the logic/reason in your own mind.

That is the fundamental. The only thing for certain is that you think, and thus you must exist (or else you cannot think). Nothing else is for certain. All else is perceived.

Cogito ergo sum. I think therefore I am.

This statement has been misinterpreted several times so let's have a go at explaining it.

Actually, this statement reaches a level of absolute doubt. Everything is dubious, nothing is for certain. Everything's existence is to be questioned. God is uncertain. Truth is uncertain because of opinion. This keyboard is uncertain because my senses are not to be trusted. The only conclusion reached is my ability to think. And thus, i alone, exist, without question.

because in order to say that you don't exist, you must have to actually exist.

That is just another way to say, I think, therefore i am.


ps. Hi Kontrolz

[GuruMeditation]

Guru, get back online and playing.

I will when I can. Starting September 24th I'll be juggling the full time job, 3 college classes, raising an 18 month old and my other online addictions

I've dropped off the last few months mainly because of one project in particular, but things are starting to wind down again.

That and I have a bet with someone on Pacman CE, winner gets an iPod Touch. And I'm not losing that bet.

[Vykromond]

Yes he did doubt his senses a priori, but I'm pretty sure that he pulled the religion card in order to get to the next step of his line of reasoning.

yes

For, in the first place even the principle which I have already taken as a rule, viz., that all the things which we clearly and distinctly conceive are true, is certain only because God is or exists and because he is a Perfect Being, and because all that we possess is derived from him: whence it follows that our ideas or notions, which to the extent of their clearness and distinctness are real, and proceed from God, must to that extent be true.

[Twerp]

I now know what kontrolz avatar is...its been killing me

[Cops]

Good point. Talking scientifically, the only parameters we can go by are our basic senses. Anything else is, technically speaking, speculative: like god existing.

Therefore to deny in anyway the evidence of our senses is to deny the ONLY proof we have on the matter.

my doors of perception are telling me to go eat something.

[MetalHeadz]

laugh

I rest my case.


I've reduced you to only being able to laugh, real smooth fluffz.

[Fluffz]

laugh

[MetalHeadz]

I can prove my existance and the existance of others through touch, smell, taste...

Good point. Talking scientifically, the only parameters we can go by are our basic senses. Anything else is, technically speaking, speculative: like god existing.

Therefore to deny in anyway the evidence of our senses is to deny the ONLY proof we have on the matter.

[Cops]

Even if this was a facade and an illusion then we would be part of something else, like Jerome said nothing comes from nothing and if this isn't real then there has to be something that thought of our existence or created us. It's the snow globe theory that we may exist but to exist whether metaphysically, logically, biologically, mentally then we are still justified as being part of something even if we are merely a dream on a summer's day.

I think therefore I am.

[Cops]

What do you guys think is real?

I personally think that it is impossible for an objective view of reality to exist. In order for something to exist it must be perceived. In order for something to be perceived there must be a "perceiver". In order for that perceiver to exist though there must be another perceiver perceiving it. It will continue in that loop to infinity. Unless you use the liar paradox's self-reference to say, I exist because I perceive myself, but that is a known logical paradox.

Using that logic to me it is obvious that the only reality you can ever really "know" is the one inside your head. If that is true then there is no difference between truly believing something and something "actually existing". So if you truly believed you could fly, then you would. Even IF there was an objective reality, in your head you'd be flying and it would be as real as anything you've ever experienced (although you might look insane to someone else assuming there is an objective reality).

I know some of you guys have to of formed your own deep opinions/philosophy on this subject. So what do you guys think is real?

I believe I am concious, I percieve people to be concious. I can prove my existance and the existance of others through touch, smell, taste, laughter, and many other things that make me feel connected to this world and others. But again i percieve this, I believe this much like someone believes in a higherpower, ultimately whether reality is real or I believe it to be real it does not make much of a difference. Is what I see and believe to be real make it any less real than if it were all in my head? I think not.

[MetalHeadz]

i just like to hear me talk.

oh and metal, your racist black person "proof" ignoring i have to tell you there is no contradiction in not existing. think of matrix, which is popular and i lack the english words to describe it any better. if everything including our cognito(whatever u think it means) are predefined we might not exist. A Person in a book can thing, i can make a computer display everyting i want. think more complex and you have reality, someone could argue.

I rest my case.

[Fluffz]

I'm sorry, I don't quite follow what you are trying to convey, or where you disagree with me.

i just like to hear me talk.

oh and metal, your racist black person "proof" ignoring i have to tell you there is no contradiction in not existing. think of matrix, which is popular and i lack the english words to describe it any better. if everything including our cognito(whatever u think it means) are predefined we might not exist. A Person in a book can thing, i can make a computer display everyting i want. think more complex and you have reality, someone could argue.

[MetalHeadz]

Cogito ergo sum. I think therefore I am.

This statement has been misinterpreted several times so let's have a go at explaining it. It's a comment on human consciousness, in my opinion, not some sorta evidence for existence. 'I think therefore I have the capacity to conceptualise myself in time'. Not 'I think therefore I must exist'. Human consciousness, as oppose to primitive 'unconsciousness', is far more advanced - it's the only reason you've even doubted you exist. An animal doesn't question it's existence because it cannot understand that it exists in the first place.

To say that we don't exist is a contradictory by it's very nature because in order to say that you don't exist, you must have to actually exist. What you imply is that something can be nothing - when infact something is always something (exc. singularity). Even if life was an illusion, it would still be a substantiated illusion.

[Mythrandir]

One thing, Descartes did doubt his senses, he used a more objective way to describe existance. He choose the word think/experience very carefully and its meaning is so much diffenent from see, hear or feel because you can not doubt your own doubt, just try it if you disagree.

Yes he did doubt his senses a priori, but I'm pretty sure that he pulled the religion card in order to get to the next step of his line of reasoning.

this thought itself should be objective, no matter how you see, hear or feel and no matter of whatever form of existance you have. Philosophy itself is another objective view people in this thread are trying to proof does not exist.

what does it matter if your eyes and your brain register another person when a new thought is mentioned, as long as you can be sure the thought is real and existing? i say the only reality we will ever know exists is the one outside our head and perception.

I'm sorry, I don't quite follow what you are trying to convey, or where you disagree with me.

[MetalHeadz]

So then reality is real, existence exists. Who is to say we're all on the same plane of reality? No one. We aren't. Everyone will perceive reality differently. Why? Because of physics. Biology. Science. The circumstances of our objective environment, the rules, the preconditions for our being. Time itself. Reason, logic. The thousands of infinite concepts that human beings can never, ever grasp. We all think within the limits that is the human mind... but things outside of the human mind also obey these rules. Things without sentience, self-awareness, or thought, still function according to some supreme, objective set of rules, outlined by existence. They have no personal preference. With no perception, there is but one version of reality. If humans didn't (physically) exist - as they didn't millions of years ago - the world would still be quite real (at this point i assume that existence exists). It is because of this singular, objective, rational, existence that perception was even possible, because it is shared. I might indeed perceive things differently, in fact being autistic pretty much guarantees I don't see the reality that, say, my brother sees. But I am aware of that difference, I am aware of subjectivity, as is he. Subjectivity, then, becomes itself an objective standard. Constants. Though each one of us may be different, we all got here the same way: sexual reproduction. We can perceive the hell out of sexual reproduction, we can question it for all eternity, but it won't change the fact that every one of us was born because of it. It's an objective standard of reality, a rule, a law of physics and biology. We question reality because we can think, but thinking itself is an objective part of reality. Thus, that thinking leads to subjective opinions is itself a confirmation of existence - of action, of time, of reason. In other words, subjective perception of reality implies existence and objectivity.

Nice paragraph, 100% agreed with. Are you familiar with Richard Dawkins work, specifically his 'Middle Earth' theory?