Health Care 10.06.07 And The Pandora Prescription

[Cops]

jerome, this stopped being a discussion about ten minutes ago.

[Cops]

So you can't grasp dynamic concepts. You don't really back up any of your claims with real data proving your point. And you're accusing me of being insensitive towards questions of human life? Here's the thing, dude. You need to realize that you're talking about human lives. Because no matter how hard you try, no matter how much you pray and you believe it, good intention does not ensure good results. You know what sure maximizes the chances of getting a good result? A form of system which allows ideas and concepts to be refined. And if it is a good idea... then people will buy it. Businessmen make MONEY by being able to predict what will be good for society - because that's how they profit. Businessmen, when stating a goal, usually achieve it. Compare the score of "business ideas that worked" with the score of "government ideas that worked" and you'll see what I mean.

I'm glad your system considers morality and the select few who understand the system prosper from it, where as the sick and dying are just an unfortunate side affect of capitalist rhetoric.

Pure capitalism, doesn't work, I think Kolar was getting at that, he also said that there's nothing wrong with capitalism, but of course if he doesn't agree with pure capitalism you say he doesn't believe in capitalism. I believe in the ideas of capitalism but I also believe that for it to work in Canada and AMERICA there must be government intervention to ensure that individual rights, environmental laws, labor laws as well as many other things are being taken into account.

[Kolar]

What reforms? If you're talking about the free electricity, cheap phones, et cetera - then you, sir, are a liar.

No, the EVIL social reforms you were referring too during the 60-70s.

But you're right about one thing: politics is a double edged sword. Which is why I have been arguing, for quite some time now with apparently no effect whatsoever, that we should get rid of political institutions. Because I, like you, am against violence.

So you're an anarchist? That's not exactly non-violent nor do I see where violence enters into this. Even libertarians assume some form of bureaucracies must exist to service the public.

You don't do research into the history of Somalia, you assert, by virtue of your own opinion, that these people are not materialistic, and you completely disregard the actual PEOPLE of Somalia, who WANT another Somaliland... and I'm failing to see matters of complexity?

The Islamic Courts Union (ICU) goal is to setup Islamic Law in Somalia. The democratic freedoms you and I enjoy and by proxy Capitalism, materialism, consumerism are incompatible with Sharia law, which Islamic fundamentalist find offense because its roots are in Greece. I have no idea what this Somaliland crap you're going on about is, these thugs running around with guns as you said probably don't care about economic policies of the West, but they do care about instilling a harsh way of life on an entire population, using violence to achieve that goal and ally themselves with those who would have people like you and me dead.

No terrorist organizations are overtly operating around, or affiliated with, Somaliland. Because these organizations, ironically enough, were the enemy of the free.

Again I am talking about the issue with the ICU, not with this "country".


The rest I don't have time for and I don't really like being buried in text. If you can't say what you mean clearly and concise enough and feel the need to pull shit like that then whatever. I don't care to talk to people like that.

[Jerome Scuggs]

jerome, this stopped being a discussion about ten minutes ago.

Well, Kolar did make the point that we are talking about human lives here. And if we're going to deal with human lives, with people actually dying, then yeah, we should have a discourse on the best method of action.

So I'm criticized for not being compassionate and being an idealist, and then I'm accused of not taking it seriously. So then I spend quite some time explaining, logically, why what I believe is more compassionate, and more realistic, and, christ, I talk about saving more people in the real world. And then this happens.

I'm aware that it isn't a discussion, dude. The fact that you're shrugging off the things I say is perhaps one of the biggest things I hate about Socialism, that sort of thinking. All the rhetoric about love for humanity, and you won't even give people dying in your own country the time of day - I know you won't, because you're supporting the type of thinking that is killing them. You so blindly believe that you are right that you are killing them.

[Kolar]

I'm aware that it isn't a discussion, dude. The fact that you're shrugging off the things I say is perhaps one of the biggest things I hate about Socialism, that sort of thinking.

What? The right to disagree, to have an opinion?
The only way that will change is through discourse, not by throwing text at people and calling them an idiot. If you don't care about either then there's nothing more to be said here.

[Cops]

Well, Kolar did make the point that we are talking about human lives here. And if we're going to deal with human lives, with people actually dying, then yeah, we should have a discourse on the best method of action.

So I'm criticized for not being compassionate and being an idealist, and then I'm accused of not taking it seriously. So then I spend quite some time explaining, logically, why what I believe is more compassionate, and more realistic, and, christ, I talk about saving more people in the real world. And then this happens.

I'm aware that it isn't a discussion, dude. The fact that you're shrugging off the things I say is perhaps one of the biggest things I hate about Socialism, that sort of thinking. All the rhetoric about love for humanity, and you won't even give people dying in your own country the time of day - I know you won't, because you're supporting the type of thinking that is killing them. You so blindly believe that you are right that you are killing them.

I never accused you of not taking it seriously, like Kolar said I don't like being buried in a big pile of text. I tried my best to get through what you said but to be honest you could have easily cut down your posts and made it seem less like a novel and more like a discussion.

How do I not give the people dying in my country the time of day?

edit: I said this stopped being a discussion ten minutes ago not because I was unwillingly to have an open conversation but because you buried Kolar in text, for all intensive purposes me as well, considering if you want to follow this discussion you had to read what you said.

[Jerome Scuggs]

No, the EVIL social reforms you were referring too during the 60-70s.

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So you're an anarchist? That's not exactly non-violent nor do I see where violence enters into this. Even libertarians assume some form of bureaucracies must exist to service the public.

Keep generalizing. Seriously. It lends creedence to the validity of your arguments.

The Islamic Courts Union (ICU) goal is to setup Islamic Law in Somalia. Capitalism and democratic freedoms you and I enjoy are incompatible with Sharia law, which Islamic fundamentalist find offense because its roots are in Greece. I have no idea what this Somaliland crap you're going on about is, these thugs running around with guns as you said probably don't care about economic policies of the West, but they do care about instilling a harsh way of life on an entire population, using violence to achieve that goal and ally themselves with those who would have people like you and me dead.

Way to once again lend validity to your arguments by not even researching a key topic I bring up. I'm making this entire paragraph the link, so you won't miss it. This "Somaliland crap" has literally saved lives and is a beacon of peace and freedom and potential.

You are making condescending lightness out of a very serious topic. Way to go, dude. Seriously.

Again I am talking about the issue with the ICU, not with this "country".

...and then you assume Somaliland does exist. But then you proceed to contradict yourself because, once again, the ICU has zilch to do with Somaliland.

The rest I don't have time for and I don't really like being buried in text. If you can't say what you mean clearly and concise enough and feel the need to pull shit like that then whatever. I don't care to talk to people like that.

Dude, quite frankly: fuck off. I mean that. I have done nothing but give you proof after proof justifying everything I say. I have attempted to explain several concepts you obviously either a) do not understand at all or b) have only a one-sided view of a subject of moot point. I've been as direct as I can be, I have explained and argued every major point you make.

Considering that I am double-majoring in English and Economics, have won numerous writing contests, debated for six years, have been paid to write pieces for my newspaper, and still manage to get laid... I'd say that, as a capitalist, I am looking at what you bring to the table and quite frankly, it's worthless.

And especially considering Reaver posted saying that he understood and agreed with what I was saying, I'd say that more people understand what I'm saying than what you're saying.

See where I'm getting at? Stop looking at the sky and hoping for the best. If you ignore reality, it will punch you in the face.

[Jerome Scuggs]

I never accused you of not taking it seriously, like Kolar said I don't like being buried in a big pile of text. I tried my best to get through what you said but to be honest you could have easily cut down your posts and made it seem less like a novel and more like a discussion.

When the Adderall finally wears off and I pass out, there will be one person reading this that decided that it couldn't hurt to read about real issues in the real world, and he wasn't even arguing.

And dude, when I write about Capitalism, fuck yeah you'll get a novel. Why?

It's a little more complex then the commies keeping everyone down.

we're talking about human lives here

I'm glad your system considers morality and the select few who understand the system prosper from it, where as the sick and dying are just an unfortunate side affect of capitalist rhetoric.

Beause if that's what counts as a valid argument that could very well change the course of a human being's life, then I'm going to fight tooth and nail to see that the people dying because of your refusal to argue get their fair share of mainstream discourse. Had I kept it vague and simple as you did, I couldn't use my amazing treasure chest of facts and figures that prove why your sort of stance is a moral and ethical travesty.

[Kolar]

Keep generalizing. Seriously. It lends creedence to the validity of your arguments.

Anarchism is a political philosophy or group of philosophies and attitudes which reject any form of compulsory government.

Removing political instutions = anarchy. What did you expect me to think. Again where did violence come into that? I can understand if you're trying to find common ground on non-violence but really I think that's reaching. Libertarianism is the belief in local autonomy stressing the rights of personal property and mutual respect, smaller government, not lack of government.

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somaliland]Way to once again lend validity to your arguments by not even researching a key topic I bring up. I'm making this entire paragraph the link, so you won't miss it. This "Somaliland crap" has literally saved lives and is a beacon of peace and freedom and potential.

I have no interest in discussing Somaliland. We were discussing Somalia which is currently in a state of shit due to internal and external forces all of which has nothing to do with communism. If you disagree link me to a credible source.

...and then you assume Somaliland does exist. But then you proceed to contradict yourself because, once again, the ICU has zilch to do with Somaliland.

I never commented on Somaliland as I have never heard of it. I commented on the ICU currently in control of much of Somalia. I put "country" because it is not officially recognized by any country or NGO.


I don't appreciate people overwhelming threads with text like Tone or Spin because they think their ideas are awesome. A forum is for discussion, nothing more. I do not believe you are objective enough on this issue to have a rational debate. You know basically nothing of my personal life. Show a little more maturity please.

I think you fail in rebuttals mostly. I don't think you actually read what I say and I personally find that irritating.

[Cops]

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Keep generalizing. Seriously. It lends creedence to the validity of your arguments.



Way to once again lend validity to your arguments by not even researching a key topic I bring up. I'm making this entire paragraph the link, so you won't miss it. This "Somaliland crap" has literally saved lives and is a beacon of peace and freedom and potential.

You are making condescending lightness out of a very serious topic. Way to go, dude. Seriously.



...and then you assume Somaliland does exist. But then you proceed to contradict yourself because, once again, the ICU has zilch to do with Somaliland.



Dude, quite frankly: fuck off. I mean that. I have done nothing but give you proof after proof justifying everything I say. I have attempted to explain several concepts you obviously either a) do not understand at all or b) have only a one-sided view of a subject of moot point. I've been as direct as I can be, I have explained and argued every major point you make.

Considering that I am double-majoring in English and Economics, have won numerous writing contests, debated for six years, have been paid to write pieces for my newspaper, and still manage to get laid... I'd say that, as a capitalist, I am looking at what you bring to the table and quite frankly, it's worthless.

And especially considering Reaver posted saying that he understood and agreed with what I was saying, I'd say that more people understand what I'm saying than what you're saying.

Reaver posted before you started posting large bodies of text, since this discussion is more between you me and Kolar as of right now I'd say more people agree with what he's saying.

Jerome, you quoted wikipedia, did you take the time to check the sources of the wikipedia page? I'm not trying to point out that there's discrepancies on that page but more so that it's not a valid source especially in the academic community. A lot of my professors and probably your professors have told you that you can use it to get links to other Academic websites but good luck sourcing it when you write a paper.

You sound like a cocky asshole right now, you've completely flipped this conversation around to full out attacking someone. I couldn't give two flying fucks that you were on a debate team, or that you know how to drown people out in text or even that your capitalist-libertarian philosophy's clash. Basically you've pegged me as a socialite even if the only social program that I really believe in, not that it should even be called a social program is universal health care.

I've graduate with top marks, received a 100% scholarship to my school, I was awarded $3500 from the Canadian government for receiving the top marks at my high school. I have been accepted to institutions all across Ontario for writing and English, I have been approached by several of my teachers who have or currently work at CBC that have shown some interest in me as a student and through all of this, do I think I am better than anyone? Absolutely not, and neither are you. We're both in school, we both don't have a degree (yet) and are sexual appetite should not define us as a person.

[Jerome Scuggs]

I entered this thread itching for a discourse, and I have spent quite some time typing all this out, and what's the result?

Nothing.

Respect? You don't even bring up arguments I make. You don't read the articles I have given, or even care to research anything I say. I know this, because if you did, you wouldn't be complaining about it being too long.

Even the arguments I make that aren't so great... you don't even try. You get into discussions about how this is "too much".

I am attacked because my source, Wikipedia, could potentially be invalid. I haven't even seen a link from the two of you.

Why do you advocate a position that you aren't even willing to defend? And when did writing too much become a bad thing? When did "you're making too many arguments" become a defense against what one says? When did "who can paint a better utopia" become a better method of discourse than "look at a problem, consider a solution, and discuss it"?

And yeah, I'm a cocky asshole. But when I have contributed as much thought as I can into my argumentation, when I spend time double-checking what I say and editing everything... and you guys wind up ignoring most of it, and stick to the very shit that I am criticizing... you're the asshole, dude. I have given you the potential to at least understand where I'm coming from, and you guys have given me the metaphorical finger. I have repeatedly explained where you fault yourselves in your argumentation, logic, and other points, and I might get a few horsefarts and then a slew of the same stuff you were going on about in the beginning.

So of course you're going to accuse me of not answering your argumentation. And perhaps I don't. Why? Because while I'm using Somaliland as a concrete example of the free market building up a stable country... as an example of the one successful free market democracy versus the multitudes of African countries that have fallen due to Socialism, Kolar is refusing to argue about it, instead going on about violent regimes, which I'm also criticizing... so I'm arguing Somaliland, and Kolar and I are both agreeing that violent government regimes are bad. Do you see why I can't find any concrete point of yours to attack? And you'll see consistently where I point out contradictions in your logic and holes in your argumentation.

You want to defend Universal Healthcare, I'm going to toss you every fucking thing I have against it because I think it's a bad idea. I'm going to question your data. Your use of logic. Your assumptions. Your ethics, your morals. I'm going to use what I know to bury you into the ground. Why? Because, had you actually devoted yourself to an analysis of the situation, you would have learned. You could, you know, think critically.. as I have tried to do. I didn't always unload on people, dude. Back when I was forming my ideas, I got ripped on quite a bit. But instead of bitching, I tossed it right back. I have conquered more to-the-grave Socialists on these sort of debates than you could shake a stick at. But these people always come back, tossing me things that I haven't thought of... and I don't complain. I do the research, and find a way to stick it to 'em.

That's what arguing is, fellas.

[Kolar]

I entered this thread itching for a discourse, and I have spent quite some time typing all this out, and what's the result?

I doubt that. I don't think you wanted any discussion on this, you just wanted an audience to your bullshit, just like Tone, Spin, Ignite ect... You've got a chance to change that around because I know people like them are 100% full of shit.

Respect? You don't even bring up arguments I make. You don't read the articles I have given, or even care to research anything I say. I know this, because if you did, you wouldn't be complaining about it being too long.

I gave examples from a legitimate and working social democracy, my experiences with it. Sense you and Reaver seem to not understand that Capitalism is an economic philosophy, not a political philosophy. I told you that I have never heard of Somaliland. As for Somalia being turned to shit by communist, that is not true.

www.lewrockwell.com From Wiki: LewRockwell.com (LRC) is a paleolibertarian web magazine run by Lew Rockwell, Burton Blumert, and others associated with the Center for Libertarian Studies. Clearly a political publication, not an unbiased resource of media.

So I'll try, as for cheaper review thisfor more information on the American and Canadian system compared. This article only states that people, even in Canada, have the right to access the private health care sector which I completely approve of. The only difference is that that access to health care is a right of citizenship so if you wish to be a citizen and pay taxes it will fund the public system. Wait times are an issue but the above report also mentions that on access and level of care given it is on par with and in some cases superior to the American system. Public Health Care is opt-in, not opt-out. If you do not want to use a public hospital, family practice or walk-in clinic and use a doctor in the private sector there's nothing stopping you.

Even the arguments I make that aren't so great... you don't even try. You get into discussions about how this is "too much".

While that's true there's no way I am going to spend my time breaking up your text to make it readable. Again this is a forum not a debate forum. We're here however misguided in an attempt to change each other's mind and share information. There's no winning and no awards. The more you make it harder for me or anyone here to read the less credible I assume you are and the less interested I will be.

So of course you're going to accuse me of not answering your argumentation. And perhaps I don't. Why? Because while I'm using Somaliland as a concrete example of the free market building up a stable country... as an example of the one successful free market democracy versus the multitudes of African countries that have fallen due to Socialism, Kolar is refusing to argue about it, instead going on about violent regimes, which I'm also criticizing...

I never said communism and pure socialism works. And I haven't seen any examples here of any African countries being effected by socialism or communism or a lesser extent of it. And if so I would argue that it isn't a slippery slope in terms of post-industrialized nations, as Capitalism exist and works within a social democracy. I've explained how universal health care in Western countries is open ended meaning in most cases private enterprise provides for it (The Government of Canada isn't manufacturing medical supplies) and the private sector is allowed to function for those wanting its services. Nearly 30% of the health care industry is provided for by the private sector like dental services, drugs ect...

You mentioned Somalia to begin with, I corrected you by stating educational reforms were instituted by a totalitarian military regime and that decades of military conflict and foreign intervention on the Horn of Africa has resulted in an unstable environment. I saw nothing more on the issue so I assumed it was done.

The current President of Somaliland is Dahir Riyale Kahin is currently accused of killing civilians on a massive scale according to the US State Department and numerous Human Rights organizations During the 1980s war in Somalia. He was involved in "torture and extrajudicial killings of civilians on a massive scale". I don't see the difference. Yes, there's stability due to the build up of security and it allowed this region to become a separate entity from Somalia, but how is this guy or anyone who's going to take power there not a war lord or a thug with weapons?

I only wonder why you need to point to a "Utopia" like this to explain your political beliefs? I never said "hey look at Canada, we fucken own". I live there and believe my experiences with this sort of system trumps your ideas about it because it really does not reflect the reality of the situation.
And as much as it's currently taboo to stereotype or make broad assumptions about the United States, particularly the South on this forum, why is it ok for you to do so about my country, culture and political institution?

The best part about Western civilization is that we steal ideas from everywhere. When it works we keep it, when it doesn't as you said it organically becomes obsolete. Why that isn't happening is stagnation, Washington doesn't have the balls to do anything (at all, not just universal health care) and is so deeply corrupt and people are powerless without a Government that represents their interests, not only that of the market.

[Cops]

You want to defend Universal Healthcare, I'm going to toss you every fucking thing I have against it because I think it's a bad idea. I'm going to question your data. Your use of logic. Your assumptions. Your ethics, your morals. I'm going to use what I know to bury you into the ground. Why? Because, had you actually devoted yourself to an analysis of the situation, you would have learned. You could, you know, think critically.. as I have tried to do. I didn't always unload on people, dude. Back when I was forming my ideas, I got ripped on quite a bit. But instead of bitching, I tossed it right back. I have conquered more to-the-grave Socialists on these sort of debates than you could shake a stick at. But these people always come back, tossing me things that I haven't thought of... and I don't complain. I do the research, and find a way to stick it to 'em.

That's what arguing is, fellas.

Arguing ins't and shouldn't be full out attacking people, but you made ridiculous assumptions about Kolar and have come across as a jackass, which is weird because you tend not to be an asshole but you've definitely pushed the asshole card, probably in pure frustration. I used wikipedia as a non-academic source, primarily because you went off on some banter about your credentials, which aren't shit, don't worry neither are mine.

You're throwing a shit load of text at me and quoting market analysis and economists to come up with your conclusions that health care actually hurts us. Universal Health Care probably takes away from the people who have money but this isn't about statistics, it's about your political philosophy on whether you as an individual believe that all people in your country deserve some basic form of health care. But you believe that the people who will die are the unfortunate few for the betterment society, havn't I heard that shit somewhere? Oh yeah it's in the Communist Manifesto.

I remember a point in time when you buried your head into communist thought, you believed in it's foundations. I've even had several talks with you about communism throughout the years but you've taken some economy courses and now you're a bleeding heart capitalist douche who thinks that life is expendable just cause you read some books about free markets. There's no such thing as a free markets or free trade, subsidies exist so that we can make money from other countries and as much as I like the idea that every country in this world has the ability to compete on an open market it would never happen. Why? Because dependency is power, ie feeding countries that should realistically be able to feed themselves.

I have a problem with pure capitalism, it doesn't account for human life, I believe that it should be used just that it needs to be monitored to make sure businesses are meeting labor laws, environmental laws and making sure the individual is above all else being taken care of, the government in a capitalist society needs to be the counter-balance. I believe there should be social programs that exist for people who are the 'left overs' of a capitalist society, why? because it's the right thing morally, not economically to make sure people who are down and out get help and that we as a society do not turn our backs on people.

This issue is more about morals and ethics, you believe it's about dollars and cents, of course we wont agree because what you're arguing is life vs money, and even you've openly admitted that people will die.

[Cops]

Examples where the Market has fucked over countries;

Jamaica - currently still in debt, American economists fucked up one of Jamaica's most lively markets which was bananas that they exported to Britain, it basically cut costs (social programs) and forced them to lower their dollar which has actually made things worse. Local farmers cannot afford to grow their own crops because we sell our crops to them at such a discounted prices, self-sustiaing industries in Jamaica such as their milk industry has gone under and they now import powdered milk. This is a country that has adopted rigid economic policies implemented by American economists and basically got fucked over in the transition.

Haiti - imports rice, after American economists got through with this country they actually had to start importing rice to feed their people, a country that is abundant in rice. They borrowed money to get out debt, cut social programs, people die, they're in debt. This isn't anything new, and all the top level economists in America still try to implement these irrational changes on countries.

[Bioture]

spending money that he earned from saving someone's life.

That's the truth. If life is the most precious thing of them all, presumably you'll have people who are willing to spend exorbant amounts of money to get the best there is. Don't get me wrong - I see it as a market... and sometimes you just can't afford what you need or want. I have a co-worker here that needs open heart surgery, but he doesn't want to get it even after insurance since it'll be around 40-50k.

magic johnson has a cure for aids.