Health Care 10.06.07 And The Pandora Prescription

[genocidal]

The only reason someone put the time and effort into figuring out how to perform a heart transplant was for money. He didn't sit down one day and say, "I think I'll spend 15 years of my life attempting to perfect this procedure (which I may or may not do) because I feel bad for people who have shitty hearts."

[Jerome Scuggs]

1) look for group consensus: failed

Cops, apperently capitalism has found a way to beat the problem of 'old age'. It's something that we can only dream about in our communist country

LOL

finding shelter in the collective as to abdicate any actual intellectual responsibility: success.

I don't need group consensus because I don't need to constantly seek validation for my principles.

[Kolar]

And especially considering Reaver posted saying that he understood and agreed with what I was saying, I'd say that more people understand what I'm saying than what you're saying.

...

[Jerome Scuggs]

I'd like to think that people actually care about each other and in which case they create programs that reflect that view.

The businessman who designed the clothes you're wearing doesn't give a shit about you.

[Jerome Scuggs]

...

Two seperate issues. You brought up that noone in their right mind would understand my bad argumentation. I used Reaver as an example, and nothing more, while the three of you have found it convenient to gangbang me sideways.

[Kolar]

Two seperate issues. You brought up that noone in their right mind would understand my bad argumentation. I used Reaver as an example, and nothing more, while the three of you have found it convenient to gangbang me sideways.

Bullshit. You are seeking both.

[Jerome Scuggs]

Bullshit. You are seeking both.

Just because Reaver happens to agree with some of my argumentation, I'm using him to seek validation? I have not asked Reaver to say that I was right. I did not compel genocidal to hop on this thread, either. None of my argumentation uses the weight of the majority. It is by virtue of what I believe. While the three of you can pick and choose my arguments as you like, I am busy dealing with the three of you, and I'm not using a crutch. If one of them makes a good point, I'll use it. I have that right. But I am not posting snide comments and genocidal is not "LOL"ing. I'm not using condescension, you are.

[Spider]

Louisiana is a highly socialist state.

I'm sorry, I laughed at this really hard. It's very sterotypically "American." I don't know shit about Louisiana, it may well be very leftist so far as the American sandbox is concerned, but it is not a "highly socialist state."

I also thought the little statement at the end of your story about the Evil Socialist was humourous too. It's just like the racist friend we all had growing up who would say terrible things and then finish it off with "but I have a black friend!" as if that somehow lends creditably to his or her viewpoints.

You're just a Conservative with a biased point of view (which is fine because I'm a literate socialist with a biased point of view). According to many/most inicators Canada's "socialist" health care system works better than America's. (and it's cheaper) And even Canada's system isn't very good compared to places like Sweden and Norway. In fact, this doesn't go just for health care but practically everything else as well. Look at all the Scandinavian countries. USA is rich and powerful in aggregate terms but your country actually sucks really bad and so does your Conservatism. You Americans just never pull your collective heads out of your rear ends to look around the world or else you'd realize that you don't actually have very good processes for doing anything. Look at anything - infant mortality rates, life expectency, education, crime rates. Sure, you think you have all this shit figured out, your little free market and it all makes so much sense. If people have to PAY themselves, surely they will look for (and find) the best possible treatment at a wicked-low Wal-Mart price! Look at the outcomes though. It. Just. Doesn't. Work. Very. Well.

Part of the problem is that you have more "special interest" dicks up your "free market" asshole then you seem to realize. But another part of the problem is how you guys take care of your business is just stupid. That is another important piece of the puzzle.

And if you actually understood the Canadian Medicare system you would realize that its framework is actually very "capitalist" in nature. In Canada we are total capitalists, we're actually very good at maintaining a stronge free market. Capitalism is fabulous, just not the way Americans know and practice it.

I'll explain, for some people who don't know, what puts the "socialist" in medicine, in Canada. In really simple terms our health care system is funded entirely by one huge manditory health insurance program that everyone needs to pay into. It is the "single payer" in the system, and it is known as Medicare. Medicare is funded by governments general revenue (tax money) and in some (I think most) provinces an additional tiny fee which seems big to the average chap but really accounts for a tiny percentage of the cost. So that's it. All the money that flows into the system comes from this single payer.

Technically you can run a private hospital in Canada (some Canadian's don't know this even though they do exist). Here is the catch, though. The Medicare system (the single payer) has a schedule of what services are covered and what they cost. The hospital performs a procedure and then charges Medicare (on behalf of and instead of charging the patient). All the other shit is up to them. But if a hospital charges the patient for a service covered by Medicare, or if the hospital provides a service not covered, it, under most circumstances, is forced to opt entirely out of the Medicare program.

In that case, obviously, the hospital would get few if any "customers" because generally speaking Canadian's get very good "free" service in the hospitals that are all over the country. As a result there are only 20 or so private health care facilities in Canada and they provide a limited number of procedures (profitable ones) to a niche "market". Basically, there is no "private" health care in Canada because there is no demand for it in Canada and according to the conservative principle known as the market place of ideas this means that public health care works better and is better than private health care.

Ya feelin' me, bra?

That's just my opinion though.

[genocidal]

I didn't even read your shit-storm. I read one post by Jerome (because I skip over most other peoples' posts in this thread always) and it had Epi talking about socialized health care having the same degree of innovation as a pure capitalist one (a very naive statement).

I probably agree with most of what Jerome says but he says it a lot more callously than I would, but then again maybe he doesn't. I'm not part of an asshole forum bloc against the credulous Canadians - I just call bullshit as I see it (and thankfully I don't read 70% of the shit on these forums so I do a lot less calling).

[Jerome Scuggs]

I'm sorry, I laughed at this really hard. It's very sterotypically "American." I don't know shit about Louisiana, it may well be very leftist so far as the American sandbox is concerned, but it is not a "highly socialist state."

I, too, am laughing. You "don't know anything about louisiana" but you claim is isn't a Socialist state.

I live here, and I know about Louisiana, I'm related to Huey Long, and I disagree. Suck my dick.

I also thought the little statement at the end of your story about the Evil Socialist was humourous too. It's just like the racist friend we all had growing up who would say terrible things and then finish it off with "but I have a black friend!" as if that somehow lends creditably to his or her viewpoints.

If you don't have anything of interest to discuss, do not waste my time. I value it.

You're just a Conservative with a biased point of view (which is fine because I'm a literate socialist with a biased point of view). According to many/most inicators Canada's "socialist" health care system works better than America's. (and it's cheaper) And even Canada's system isn't very good compared to places like Sweden and Norway. In fact, this doesn't go just for health care but practically everything else as well. Look at all the Scandinavian countries. USA is rich and powerful in aggregate terms but your country actually sucks really bad and so does your Conservatism. You Americans just never pull your collective heads out of your rear ends to look around the world or else you'd realize that you don't actually have very good processes for doing anything. Look at anything - infant mortality rates, life expectency, education, crime rates. Sure, you think you have all this shit figured out, your little free market and it all makes so much sense. If people have to PAY themselves, surely they will look for (and find) the best possible treatment at a wicked-low Wal-Mart price! Look at the outcomes though. It. Just. Doesn't. Work. Very. Well.

I think even Epinephrine can see where you're talking out of your ass.

Part of the problem is that you have more "special interest" dicks up your "free market" asshole then you seem to realize. But another part of the problem is how you guys take care of your business is just stupid. That is another important piece of the puzzle.

I will not deny that in any society, special interests exert pull.

You're claiming businessmen are evil because their "special interests" are merely economic.

I'm claiming Statism is evil because when a government official has a "special interest", he can usually force his way at the barrel of a gun or other such threats of force.

My tool is incentive. Your tool is fear.

And if you actually understood the Canadian Medicare system you would realize that its framework is actually very "capitalist" in nature. In Canada we are total capitalists, we're actually very good at maintaining a stronge free market. Capitalism is fabulous, just not the way Americans know and practice it.

Spider... if you promise to not post your opinions on a topic you obviously do not know very much about, then I will not make you look like a jackass, moreso than you already have. Any man with any grasp on economics will realize the fallacy of what you are saying.

I'll explain, for some people who don't know, what puts the "socialist" in medicine, in Canada. In really simple terms our health care system is funded entirely by one huge manditory health insurance program that everyone needs to pay into. It is the "single payer" in the system, and it is known as Medicare. Medicare is funded by governments general revenue (tax money) and in some (I think most) provinces an additional tiny fee which seems big to the average chap but really accounts for a tiny percentage of the cost. So that's it. All the money that flows into the system comes from this single payer.

Yes, that's what I've been criticizing. Reeding iz gud.

Technically you can run a private hospital in Canada (some Canadian's don't know this even though they do exist). Here is the catch, though. The Medicare system (the single payer) has a schedule of what services are covered and what they cost. The hospital performs a procedure and then charges Medicare (on behalf of and instead of charging the patient). All the other shit is up to them. But if a hospital charges the patient for a service covered by Medicare, or if the hospital provides a service not covered, it, under most circumstances, is forced to opt entirely out of the Medicare program.

You know why it's now legal to do this? Because the Supreme Court overturned a law saying otherwise because people were dying. Not from malpractice... from waiting.

In that case, obviously, the hospital would get few if any "customers" because generally speaking Canadian's get very good "free" service in the hospitals that are all over the country. As a result there are only 20 or so private health care facilities in Canada and they provide a limited number of procedures (profitable ones) to a niche "market". Basically, there is no "private" health care in Canada because there is no demand for it in Canada and according to the conservative principle known as the market place of ideas this means that public health care works better and is better than private health care.

Trends indicate otherwise.

Ya feelin' me, bra?

.

No.

That's just my opinion though.

And I will respect it as nothing more.

[Chino]

After reading trough some posts I can only laugh at Jerome.
His arguments are stupid and he appear to be very narrowminded. I do enjoy reading the way he writes!
But above is just myopinion. Had to get to off my chest.



ps. patented hearttransplants ftw!

[Jerome Scuggs]

His arguments are stupid and he appear to be very narrowminded.

I'll change my sig to "I am Chino's Bitch" and promise to let PH ban me if I ever change it from that, if you can explain this statement without sounding stupid and narrowminded.

[genocidal]

They're coming out of the woodwork!

[Reaver]

Universal healthcare isn't perfect, nothing is. But then again, America is the only industrialized nation with such a privatized level of care and guess what? In almost every health indicator, America fares the worst of every developed country! More than that, Americans spend FAR MORE per capita than anyone else in the world for their healthcare. That alone should tell you that universal healthcare is CLEARLY the better system. But then again, since you are completely blind to facts it's pretty pointless to argue with you.

I offered a solution to this problem (in this thread) that doesn't involve universal health care. Our health care system isn't really an open market in the sense that other industries in the U.S. are. Hospitals and doctors should compete for customers. They don't, in fact it's quite the opposite as you know and as a result there's no need to lower costs. People don't care how much things costs because insurance takes care of it, which is why it doesn't work, which is why the costs are so high. So although universal health care is a solution, it's not the only solution for America.

Edit: And doesn't anyone else find it odd that the people in this thread trying to push universal health care onto the U.S. aren't from the U.S.? Someone tossed in an argument that Jerome isn't as credible because he's not a doctor like Epi. I can take that same argument and say you don't know shit about the U.S. because you're not from here nor do you live here and therefore aren't as credible.

[Cops]

If the government didn't suck 20-40% of our income away, they'd have money for treatment.

Yes. I'm thinking of the people who you promise medical care too, and can not receive it because of your inneficient method of distribution. You are holding on to a promise you can't deliver.

Our government doesn't suck that much out of us and at least we get free health care. I mean, if the government plans on financially raping you it should at least pay for some things.

I, too, am laughing. You "don't know anything about louisiana" but you claim is isn't a Socialist state.

I live here, and I know about Louisiana, I'm related to Huey Long, and I disagree. Suck my dick.

And you don't know anything about Canada or the first thing about our health care system. So I could basically tell you to do the same thing.