Health Care 10.06.07 And The Pandora Prescription

[Cops]

man, i tried to end this.

[Epinephrine]

You really don't understand economics at all, do you? Consumers shop for the best value they can afford. When they go to a doctor, they expect to see him and get their money's worth.

Which if you knew ANYTHING about HEALTHCARE at all, you'd know is a bad idea. People demanding their money's worth doesn't make for good healthcare nor does it make for good health policy. I've listed all the reasons before, but you choose to completely ignore it, there's nothing more to say, I suggest you read my posts again.

Not sure if you realized this, but the government is a big, fucking, huge middleman. Your ideal system is my system - patient, doctor. No middleman. That's the kind of service I have chosen with my healthcare.

I love how you just conveniently contradict yourself every other post. First you way you want no middlemen. Then you say your ideal system is to have insurance companies until there's one good enough that it naturally takes over the market. And now yet again you say you want no middlemen. Make up your mind dude.

If there's no middlemen, here's what will happen. Most people won't receive ANY healthcare. Insurance (for absolutely anything from life insurance to car insurance) exists for a reason, and that's the fact that most people can't afford to pay large sums at most times. All you have to look at is the legal system and all the people who can't afford lawyers who get public defenders (the lowest paid lawyers and thus generally the lower quality guys aside from a few do gooders) who get incarcerated at much higher rates than the rich who CAN afford it. Any serious look of the entire legal system both in Canada and the US where insurance does not exist and where for the most part a free market exists shows how blatantly inequitable it is to those who are poor. Law is pretty much free market as it goes and this still happens, and you know what? It's a LOT LOT easier to be a lawyer (get into law school), to train a lawyer and to equip a lawyer than be a doctor, train a doctor or equip a doctor.

The natural end of your system is that there will be a significant proportion of the population that will receive absolutely no healthcare at all, or extremely substandard healthcare just as in every other thing which is absolutely free market. Lawyers are a perfect example. Mechanics are another great example where prices have never lowered relative to the standard of living, as are maids, butlers, dentists (who are free market in Canada and the USA), chiropractors, physiotherapists, psychologists, or private tutors. There are a ton of things out there where millenia of free markets haven't let 'everyone receive it'. Under your system this is exactly what will happen. My system doesn't give super timely access to everyone, but it DOES ensure that people who really do need healthcare receive it ASAP and get the treatment they need ASAP much more than any private system ever has. If you are too much of an ideologue to accept it, that's too bad.


P.S. Posting links which obviously talk about the US medical system and saying that is 'my system' is pretty ignorant. The US medical system is messed up and I would never advocate that system for anyone. Those articles have nothing to do with Canada and how our system works.

[Jerome Scuggs]

Which if you knew ANYTHING about HEALTHCARE at all, you'd know is a bad idea. People demanding their money's worth doesn't make for good healthcare nor does it make for good health policy. I've listed all the reasons before, but you choose to completely ignore it, there's nothing more to say, I suggest you read my posts again.

your reasons focus on risk and avdertising. I've already done plenty on that topic a few posts ago, and when you didn't even mention the post (or 404's followup post) and went on to the next topic, I didn't figure you'd do it just so I'd have to type more, later.

I love how you just conveniently contradict yourself every other post. First you way you want no middlemen. Then you say your ideal system is to have insurance companies until there's one good enough that it naturally takes over the market. And now yet again you say you want no middlemen. Make up your mind dude.

Under social healthcare, emphasis is taken away from the patient-doctor relationship and placed on the patient-insurer relationship, with doctors as an afterthought.

In the free market, where prices are lower as a result of market forces, basic checkups will cost less, and as a result, checkups will be more frequent and direct. Insurance companies are not a part of this relationship. Since doctors and patients can see eachother more, and get better, more thorough checkups, then insurance companies won't have to come into play - they will be economically forced out of the equation except for high-cost operations, surgeries, therapies, or medicine. Those who can't afford a basic checkup would also provide a market, but it would not be on the scale of today's numbers.

If there's no middlemen, here's what will happen. Most people won't receive ANY healthcare. Insurance (for absolutely anything from life insurance to car insurance) exists for a reason, and that's the fact that most people can't afford to pay large sums at most times. All you have to look at is the legal system and all the people who can't afford lawyers who get public defenders (the lowest paid lawyers and thus generally the lower quality guys aside from a few do gooders) who get incarcerated at much higher rates than the rich who CAN afford it. Any serious look of the entire legal system both in Canada and the US where insurance does not exist and where for the most part a free market exists shows how blatantly inequitable it is to those who are poor. Law is pretty much free market as it goes and this still happens, and you know what? It's a LOT LOT easier to be a lawyer (get into law school), to train a lawyer and to equip a lawyer than be a doctor, train a doctor or equip a doctor.

Lawyers are as regulated as the health sector... I totally agree with you about the legal sector. That's what happens when the State provides lawyers.

The natural end of your system is that there will be a significant proportion of the population that will receive absolutely no healthcare at all, or extremely substandard healthcare just as in every other thing which is absolutely free market.

Wow, bro. Even I try to throw in an example or two when I make wide sweeping claims like that.

But I don't have to look far, I suppose. When I went to high school, only three kids could afford shoes, one kid has some shoddy flip-flops and the rest of us were barefoot. Fuck the free market, for real.

Lawyers are a perfect example. Mechanics are another great example where prices have never lowered relative to the standard of living, as are maids, butlers, dentists (who are free market in Canada and the USA), chiropractors, physiotherapists, psychologists, or private tutors. There are a ton of things out there where millenia of free markets haven't let 'everyone receive it'. Under your system this is exactly what will happen.

first off, the idea of a "free market" has only been around for a few hundred years, as opposed to a "millenia". But the idea that government should be the end-al be-all provider of welfare has been around since civilization began. If there's one thing I'm glad about, it's that each and every one of these states has failed.

My system doesn't give super timely access to everyone, but it DOES ensure that people who really do need healthcare receive it ASAP and get the treatment they need ASAP much more than any private system ever has. If you are too much of an ideologue to accept it, that's too bad.

I'd rather not call this a "lie", so I'll take it this is your opinion?

P.S. Posting links which obviously talk about the US medical system and saying that is 'my system' is pretty ignorant. The US medical system is messed up and I would never advocate that system for anyone. Those articles have nothing to do with Canada and how our system works.

I didn't claim they applied. Both posts were showing how doctors and patients alike are sick of the regulation of healthcare and insurance and, in circumventing said regulations, wind up getting better service. The warrants of each article are very good and unless you can pull some writing out of your ass (seriously, you haven't posted much data or much of anything besides your own ideas and theories, at least I can justify my arguments)

All in all, though, I suppose if I'm going to convince you, we're going to have to wait it out. People used to say the market couldn't create wealth, clothe and feed people, but given the hundred years between then and now and even you concede that the market does achieve those things, the argument has just shifted to "correcting market inequalities" and perceived problems. You and quite a few people are so caught up in the short-term, that you're forgetting to step back and see the painful trend of increased government regulation and the destruction of our economy, which also means the welfare of a nation. I know I sound like some fanatic who's predicting Apocalypse, but seriously. Our dollar, no offense, fell below Canada's, and I guess too many people were "lol canada"ing to realize the serious fucking implications. The value of our dollar has gone from $35 an ounce to $600 an ounce - ibuying gold is going to be more profitable than investment, even without interest, if the rate of inflation keeps rising.

But you know, whatever. The people running the world must know more than me, I'm only 19.

[Cops]

is it over yet?

[Epinephrine]

Under social healthcare, emphasis is taken away from the patient-doctor relationship and placed on the patient-insurer relationship, with doctors as an afterthought.

Actually the patient doctor relationship is much better under our system. Since you absolutely don't have to worry about paying, and doctors don't have to worry that you can't pay them, the entire relationship is based on medical need.

But I don't have to look far, I suppose. When I went to high school, only three kids could afford shoes, one kid has some shoddy flip-flops and the rest of us were barefoot. Fuck the free market, for real.

A better example is, some people drive cars. Some people drive nice cars, a lot of people drive shit cars. Many people have NO cars.

All in all, though, I suppose if I'm going to convince you, we're going to have to wait it out. People used to say the market couldn't create wealth, clothe and feed people, but given the hundred years between then and now and even you concede that the market does achieve those things, the argument has just shifted to "correcting market inequalities" and perceived problems. You and quite a few people are so caught up in the short-term, that you're forgetting to step back and see the painful trend of increased government regulation and the destruction of our economy, which also means the welfare of a nation. I know I sound like some fanatic who's predicting Apocalypse, but seriously. Our dollar, no offense, fell below Canada's, and I guess too many people were "lol canada"ing to realize the serious fucking implications. The value of our dollar has gone from $35 an ounce to $600 an ounce - ibuying gold is going to be more profitable than investment, even without interest, if the rate of inflation keeps rising.

But you know, whatever. The people running the world must know more than me, I'm only 19.

Hey, I have nothing against capitalism. What I do have against is a system whereby, the default action is telling people 'hey, can't pay, you will die too bad'. Capitalism is good for many things, but not all things. I wouldn't want the capitalistic system to run the army, to run the courts, to run the government (as opposed to elected officials), or to run healthcare.

I have a problem with telling people to their face that they will die because they cannot afford better care. Not every health problem is someone's 'fault' and a lot of healthcare will always be expensive no matter what you think. Unless you have the will to go to the millions of people who will get no care in the next few centuries until capitalism eventually 'sorts them out' (if it will at all, remember not everyone can afford a car yet) and tell them to their face and their family's faces 'too bad, you will die because you can't pay' then I think you are downplaying the moral arguement too much. And if you CAN do that, then you're one heartless bastard.

[Send]

This thread took me an hour and a half to read.

It was worth it though.

Keep going.

[Foreign]

I don't have time to read the entire thread, so pardon me if I'm repeating what someone else has already said. Furthermore, I'm not involved enough in the medical field to really be an authority, but I don't think socialized medicine is practical for the U.S. at this point in time.

A simple truth of economics is that nothing is free. Someone is always paying for any service or product rendered to a consumer, regardless of how much that consumer pays for it (if anything). That said, "free" health care would be great for all the people below the poverty line who don't have to pay taxes. The government can pick up their tab.

However, I think generally the people who will end up using the "free" health care are going to be the ones that don't pay for it today and therefore don't incur any costs today. Think about the impact socialized medicine would have on the U.S. economy. Being that people never stop getting sick and medicine is a highly specialized field, we will never have enough doctors. Socialized medicine would drive demand for medical treatments even further than it already is. The government would end up having to foot an even larger bill for medical treatment because no doctor is going to work for whatever ridiculous price the government wants to pay when he could just go practice privately.

It's a hairy situation, because the government also can't dictate at what price private doctors must offer their services. If someone came to my office today and told me I had to work for half my normal salary from now on because of some ridiculous new law, I'd find a new field of work. I'm sure a lot of doctors would do the same.

Maybe I'm just thinking of myself. I budgeted for good health care using the salary I earn, and I'm going to take advantage of it. I don't want to have to pay for my own health care AND help the government pay for all of the people who currently don't have any health care.

[Cops]

I don't have time to read the entire thread, so pardon me if I'm repeating what someone else has already said. Furthermore, I'm not involved enough in the medical field to really be an authority, but I don't think socialized medicine is practical for the U.S. at this point in time.

A simple truth of economics is that nothing is free. Someone is always paying for any service or product rendered to a consumer, regardless of how much that consumer pays for it (if anything). That said, "free" health care would be great for all the people below the poverty line who don't have to pay taxes. The government can pick up their tab.

However, I think generally the people who will end up using the "free" health care are going to be the ones that don't pay for it today and therefore don't incur any costs today. Think about the impact socialized medicine would have on the U.S. economy. Being that people never stop getting sick and medicine is a highly specialized field, we will never have enough doctors. Socialized medicine would drive demand for medical treatments even further than it already is. The government would end up having to foot an even larger bill for medical treatment because no doctor is going to work for whatever ridiculous price the government wants to pay when he could just go practice privately.

It's a hairy situation, because the government also can't dictate at what price private doctors must offer their services. If someone came to my office today and told me I had to work for half my normal salary from now on because of some ridiculous new law, I'd find a new field of work. I'm sure a lot of doctors would do the same.

Maybe I'm just thinking of myself. I budgeted for good health care using the salary I earn, and I'm going to take advantage of it. I don't want to have to pay for my own health care AND help the government pay for all of the people who currently don't have any health care.

America can't afford it at this time, but millions lose their jobs home, lives because of health care related expenses yet America can't afford it?

because no doctor is going to work for whatever ridiculous price the government wants to pay when he could just go practice privately.

Most doctors in Canada make a decent wage, I'm not sure if Epinephrine is willing to disclose how much he makes but I assure you it's more than fair. You can't really complain about doctor salaries and the system at the same time, overpaid doctors are one of the reasons why it's so fucking expensive for a person to get anything done in America. Once the wages come down then all the doctors in Canada, Europe and other parts of the world will have no where to go to make the most money. I'm sure America will see some lose of Canadian doctors since there's tons of them that work in America, yet they were born and raised in Canada. Maybe you can force a system to be built up from the ground up where you produce doctors who are more concerned about helping the most people rather than making the most money. A doctor who refuses to help someone isn't a real doctor, their a slave to the capitalist wage. The real doctors refuse to work in America because it breaks their heart a little each day. America would probably become more lax on immigration especially for health care professionals, or maybe we (yes Canada is at fault too) would fully represent and honor skilled workers who were trained and educated in other countries. What a world it would be if half the cab drivers in America suddenly were allowed to practice medicine, what a day. If you have concerns about how 'good' these doctors would be you should talk to Epinephrine, not that he's out-right agreed with me but for example Indian doctors are some of the best doctors in the world.

Maybe I'm just thinking of myself. I budgeted for good health care using the salary I earn, and I'm going to take advantage of it. I don't want to have to pay for my own health care AND help the government pay for all of the people who currently don't have any health care.

There's tons of people like you, and I hate you sound like I'm looking down on you but people in your case can afford health care and probably have some type of coverage. Like I said before it's an accepted opinion in all Canadian politics that Canadians as people regardless if their poor or rich deserve some type of health care, and yes we do pay for it with our taxes but Canadians spend the same per capita as America and receives the same or better treatment than the average American receives.

I had to get an ultra-sound today because my liver is fucked up and I was throwing up blood, I had to make an appointment to see a doctor and get an ultrasound, blood test, and an upper ugi (ugi is where they take an image of your stomach requiring you to swallow a chalk like substance). Once the images are done they have to be sent separately to a radiologist and examined then sent back to my doctor who needs to see me when he gets the results.

Are you fucking kidding me about money, if this came out of my pocket I would easily spend what I do on taxes for this treatment per year! Plus if I get sick I don't have to worry if I get ill because my budgeting expenses have been shot for this year, but maybe next year I can get that that broken leg or bronchitis looked at.

The benefit is that I'm not afraid to use the system if I'm sick where as if I was in the states I'd be questioning every time I went to the hospital or doctors office. I know there's been seriously distorted views of Canada's health care system where you can wait DAYS to see a doctor at a walk in clinic but the truth is I'll usually wait 5-10 minutes or if I'm lucky I'll go when no one's there and get right in. (of course if you go right after 5'oclcok when rush hour hits you'll see the wait time increase but not more than half an hour usually)

[Epinephrine]

I'm not sure if Epinephrine is willing to disclose how much he makes but I assure you it's more than fair.

I make $46,017 as a first year resident. But once I'm out there obviously much higher. The average family doctor makes 250,000 before expenses in Ontario. The average general surgeon about 400,000. These are the official stats, from what doctors bill OHIP (our public health insurance plan) in Ontario. Obviously most docs also have things on the side which are not free, anything from botox to side businesses.

Like I said before it's an accepted opinion in all Canadian politics that Canadians as people regardless if their poor or rich deserve some type of health care, and yes we do pay for it with our taxes but Canadians spend the same per capita as America and receives the same or better treatment than the average American receives.

Actually Americans spend roughly twice as much as Canadians per capita on health care. Simply put, we spend less on health care from our taxes, than Americans spend paying for private healthcare. The reason it isn't more apparent is because most companies will pay for most if not all of your healthcare as part of your benefits if you have a good job. But obviously the healthcare were universal, you'd just get that extra money in salary instead (and then lose about half of that to taxes, but still gain 50% more money overall).

Anyway should let this thread die

[Foreign]

I didn't say America can't afford it, I'm just wondering who will end up paying for it. Obviously if you give 100 million people under the poverty line who don't pay taxes free health care someone has to pay for it.... like I said before, I don't know enough on the topic to be an authority. I just said what made sense to me

[Reaver]

At the end of the day I gotta agree with Jerome. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying what Epinephrine and others offered is a bad solution or wrong, I'm saying I agree with Jerome more and this is my opinion. You guys are arguing which is a better system when the truth about it is, they both have their problems. One system has better benefits in the long run and one is better in the short run.

[Cops]

Although I agree with Epinephrine that this thread should die you really haven't learned much if you still think capitalism works in the long run thus health care and capitalism are a match made in heaven. Canada pays less and receives far better treatment and it's accessible to everyone and it comes out of our taxes not our pockets, I'm sorry if I think you're crazy not to see why this is a good idea but then again I also see the mass amount of American's barely getting by and an unwillingness from your society to provide your own people with some basic form of health care, which should be readily available to every person.

For attackers of our health care system or any other Universal Health Care system please don't forget that you haven't proven a) a logical solution better than universal health care (without Jerome's theory on how we could change America, which isn't applicable to real life) b) Canada's health care is in superior to yours c) a way for real people in need to get some basic form of health care in America.

If I learned anything through this month long thread it's that Canadians views tend to be more isolated around the need for basic health care for all citizens and American's tend to be isolated around the fact that they might have to pay taxes for people that's not them. When you look at the issue it's complicated, I'm not trying to deny that but like Foreign said 'maybe I'm just doing what benefits me' and that's what it really comes down to but if you look at the particular cost you're deluding yourself if you think you're really benefiting from this system or any other system that requires capitalism to take complete control of our health (welcome to the world where big business is out to make money and right now as it goes they're robbing every single one of you for health insurance, which is a terrible system anyways, and you don't need me to reiterate how bad health insurance companies are).

If you're like Foreign who budgets health care expense then great but hopefully when you get sick or need surgery you wont get denied treatment from your health insurance company. I also hope that if you lose your job or get laid off you have enough money in place to afford your health insurance because all that budgeting and years of dodging the bullet will have finally caught up to you.

[Reaver]

Although I agree with Epinephrine that this thread should die you really haven't learned much if you still think capitalism works in the long run thus health care and capitalism are a match made in heaven.

How do you agree with Epinephrine, then state that someone hasn't learn much if they believe capitalism works over the long run, and not realize that Epinephrine even admitted capitalism works in the long run.

[Cops]

I have no beef with capitalism, you misunderstood. I wasn't referring to Epinephrine I was referring to people such as Jerome and others who believe capitalism and health care can be interlinked. What I was saying is that if you believe capitalism works in the long run (which I'm not saying it doesn't) and health care is best planned in the long run thus capitalism and health care are a match made in heaven. If this were true then American the health care system wouldn't be a fucking joke, but then again Americans think it's better not to leave their health up to their government. Canadian governments have limited power since we almost always have minority governments that have a short leash but the American government can basically fuck up countless times and there's no repercussion! Maybe Canadian politics is stagnant but at least we're not afraid of the government.

It's something Jerome said, although without explaining and expanding on what he said it's a broad statement that hasn't been proven in this thread, and it's a theory that he's professed yet shown little example of how this has worked, will work or can be related to anything resembling the real world.

What I want to hear is real answers to real problems and that hasn't happened yet, and it wont.

[Reaver]

I have no beef with capitalism, you misunderstood. I wasn't referring to Epinephrine I was referring to people such as Jerome and others who believe capitalism and health care can be interlinked. What I was saying is that if you believe capitalism works in the long run (which I'm not saying it doesn't) and health care is best planned in the long run thus capitalism and health care are a match made in heaven. If this were true then American the health care system wouldn't be a fucking joke, but then again Americans think it's better not to leave their health up to their government.

A free capitalistic market and a capitalistic market with government regulations are clearly different. If they weren't different then we'd be in a different situation right now.

My entire point was that there is more than one solution, and each reaps it's own benefits. I'm interested in a better long term solution.