Canada VS America

[Cops]

I shouldn't bother, since it's useless to try. But French IS spoken outside Québec, and while that's only 17% of Canada's population as Kolar noted, that's still an important number of people.


Then if you want Canada as 1 nation represented, don't state that you want "Canada and Québec" to be represented internationally by having Quebec split.

Do you even understand what kind of economic importance Quebec has? Since you seem uptight about your money comparatively to 1 subject taught in school, it would cost Canada more to lose Quebec and would have some difficulties with the big gap between the maritime provinces and the other provinces & territories. - But I'm no expert, perhaps you can prove me wrong?

Canada needs Quebec's tax's dollars, I'm not disputing that but could Quebec ever afford to become their own country? No. I don't want Quebec to split, nor do I think 50% of the people warrants a decision of that magnitude. I basically want Quebec to shut the fuck up and eat their corn bread.

I also don't think teaching people a language that only 17% of the people speaks warrants spending Billions of dollars on, considering we can't even teach kids the basics.

Your excuse as to why France does not speak the same dialect, I'm not even sure I can call it a dialect considering it's a completely different language is that their media is more centered around France where as our media is more focused around other countries?

[Hakaku]

France has trouble with accents because their media is exclusive to France? Basically your excuse is that France is sheltered from international media, which is complete bullshit.

You won't find Canadian singers, or movies on French television, but you will the opposite in Canada. You won't find a Nigerian speak on French television either unless it's a documentary (which may include subtitles). I'm not saying they block out international media, I'm just saying that they're not as accepting of different forms of French and French-language media outside of France.

Anyhow, if you care so much to speak in France, then adjust your accent, it's not impossible. Take the adjective "petite", in Quebec it will be pronounced /p@t_sIt/ (puh-tsit), while in France it's pronounced /p@tit/ (puh-teet) (using X-Sampa phonetic representation). Adjusting your accent isn't easy, but it's not impossible. Compare british vs. american English (but think of it as if the british ignored the americans when they spoke - this is what French people actually due to French Canadians in France).

[iLDuce]

Calm down, guys

[Cops]

You won't find Canadian singers, or movies on French television, but you will the opposite in Canada. You won't find a Nigerian speak on French television either unless it's a documentary (which may include subtitles). I'm not saying they block out international media, I'm just saying that they're not as accepting of different forms of French and French-language media outside of France.

Anyhow, if you care so much to speak in France, then adjust your accent, it's not impossible. Take the adjective "petite", in Quebec it will be pronounced /p@t_sIt/ (puh-tsit), while in France it's pronounced /p@tit/ (puh-teet) (using X-Sampa phonetic representation). Adjusting your accent isn't easy, but it's not impossible. Compare british vs. american English (but think of it as if the british ignored the americans when they spoke - this is what French people actually due to French Canadians in France).

Your also saying that their social development has been limited due to their media outlets, where as us Canadians are so open to international media and cultures that we are far superior and more modern than the French? I might be ignorant about Quebec wanting to separate, mainly because I see it as a huge waste of money and see no gain for the individual but claiming France's social development is far less superior as ours is way more ignorant.

[Cops]

- We can't teach kids English but we can teach them French?

- It's not being economically responsible, French speaking Canadians only represents 17% of the population

- They want to be separate in all international affairs, good luck fuck wads

- They want to become their own country and gain their independence but they also want to keep our currency, shit doesn't work like that. If you want to become a country there's certain upsides and down-sides.

- Quebec disrupts Canadian affairs to provoke reaction, we end up throwing more money at them to make them happy and nothing ever gets solved.

- You can claim that it's a different dialect but it still doesn't translate into other countries, the point of teaching kids is to give them opportunity and if you think socializing our children to learn a language that is only speakable to 15-17 percent of the population then you're fucking retarded. That's not opportunity, that's inclusion, they have to stay within our borders to speak the language, that or they can learn the real language all over again.

[Cops]

Once again, there's a lot of courses taught in schools. A lot of it is obligatory, some of it not. Those that are though, are funded by the government in the end. French might not be useful for you, or the guy next to you, but maybe neither is Math, Gym Class, English class...? Education in a second language won't kill you. But if money is all you care for, then stop paying your taxes, and move elsewhere (e.g. the US).

So not only do you have biases towards France but also America.

Gym Class - if I follow it through I can use that credit to help me become a kinesiologist, , physiotherapist, sports injury therapist along with the simple fact that Gym promotes good health and fitness.

English - If you plan on going to University or College you need to know how to write an essay, there's no getting around it, you should also have some analytical skills.

Math - Is useful in our daily lives, lots of career options.

I'd say all three of those subjects are more usefull to an average person than learning French is.

Like I said, there's nothing wrong with learning a second language but it's inclusive to this country, even more so to one direct area of Canada where not even the entire population speaks French. What about the people who speak English in Quebec? What about half the population that still wants to be part of Canada? What about the people who live in Quebec and never learned French, well fuck them they can figure out where everything is? There's a lot more road signs/street signs than just as you put it the big 'octagon'.

[Hakaku]

Your also saying that their social development has been limited due to their media outlets, where as us Canadians are so open to international media and cultures that we are far superior and more modern than the French? I might be ignorant about Quebec wanting to separate, mainly because I see it as a huge waste of money and see no gain for the individual but claiming France's social development is far less superior as ours is way more ignorant.

I'm not saying anything about superiority, I'm stating actual facts, and if you need to be a wikipedia style crusader, then I'll start referencing everything for you. France does well for itself on an international level, especially in Europe, American and Asian relations (notably Japan).

What I am saying though, is that their culture is not as used to outside spoken French. They'll accept foreign media, but it doesn't mean that Zachary Richard (acadian singer) will be the next #1 hit on the radio. His songs probably won't make it to the radio station. - I'm not saying that they're hateful and discusted by him, but it's not their priority to care about him because French singers have their own success, which makes the radio successful.
Canada has a different culture, we've been used to immigration, which means we hear more types of accents. This means it's easier for us to adjust and understand how others speak. I'll know and like the French band Déportivo, and can switch to at least 2 channels on my television (even without cable), and watch French television (yes, with a French accent, with French movies). Try the same in France but the other way around.

I don't have anything against France, but the above is a fact. And it's also a fact that Canadian French pronunciation is not influenced by English; which is the exact reason why Frenchman will say "Just speak English".

[Hakaku]

So not only do you have biases towards France but also America.

Gym Class - if I follow it through I can use that credit to help me become a kinesiologist, , physiotherapist, sports injury therapist along with the simple fact that Gym promotes good health and fitness.

English - If you plan on going to University or College you need to know how to write an essay, there's no getting around it, you should also have some analytical skills.

Math - Is useful in our daily lives, lots of career options.

I'd say all three of those subjects are more usefull to an average person than learning French is.

Like I said, there's nothing wrong with learning a second language but it's inclusive to this country, even more so to one direct area of Canada where not even the entire population speaks French. What about the people who speak English in Quebec? What about half the population that still wants to be part of Canada? What about the people who live in Quebec and never learned French, well fuck them they can figure out where everything is? There's a lot more road signs/street signs than just as you put it the big 'octagon'.

French can equally be used in many fields (translation, interpretor, diplomat, politician, international relations), be useful in everyday lives (work, friends, television, radio, reading signs in Quebec), and basically everything English can be used for.

It doesn't mean that all of those criterias will affect you, and maybe none will. Just as English might not be important to a single Quebecker. Some of the classes I mentioned can be important, but it doesn't mean they're important to everyone. Their all obligatory credits, which may or may not be useful in the present, or in the future. Kids are failing at math, does that mean changing the curriculum and removing french to add a minimum of 3 math classes obligatory in 12th grade help more? - Contact your local school board, inform yourself about why kids have to learn English and French, and why spend the billions of dollars (which you never referenced for proof) when kids just fail the subject? - It's not my decision, so debating about this subject here will end up no where.

I also don't have a bias against America, but I said that if you care about your money so much that you don't want to pay the tax for a second language, which may potentially be helpful to others, then move elsewhere (e.g. = for example).

And the people who speak English in Quebec are either bilingual, or recently moved from another place (in which, children can be educated in English to full extent). Just as is the opposite in Ontario. The stop signs and other signs in my neighbourhood are written in English, yet I live in the capital of Canada? - If I cared so much, I could legally fight my way in court. You can do the same about signs in Québec.
I'm not against English people having rights there, just as vice versa.

[Kolar]

My point was, don't just point out the flaws of one province, look at Canada as a whole. If that one province 'violates' the charter, maybe others do too? Ontario and New Brunswick are basically the only two provinces that actually are mostly bilingual in all places. In the territories, French used to be of importance, but since the language has declined over the years, you won't find bilingual signs unless they're in an aboriginal language into English.

And it probably does happens in other places. That still doesn't make it right. I also don't really care for arguing over what place are more accepting of having signs in both languages. My issue isn't with that, only with legislatures who have no problem ignoring the most important piece of legislation in this country when it serves their brand of politics.

But if you care so much about having English road signs in Québec, assuming you have difficulty with a big red-octagonal sign, then appeal to the province in court. Unlike other provinces though, in Québec you're less likely to be denied service or be fired because you do speak English and not French.

Never said I did, only that provincial laws should not violate the charter. Court challenges were already made, the Premier superseded the court using the Notwithstanding clause. It is unlikely the current law will be amended because simply the issue is too dividing and with the cultural norm being exclusion based on protectionism, the current law or any amended piece of law will still violate the charter. And again I'm not saying it's only Quebec pulling this shit, but we are talking about Quebec here.

[Cops]

French can equally be used in many fields (translation, interpretor, diplomat, politician, international relations), be useful in everyday lives (work, friends, television, radio, reading signs in Quebec), and basically everything English can be used for.

limited to one province in one country.

It doesn't mean that all of those criterias will affect you, and maybe none will. Just as English might not be important to a single Quebecker.

Half the population doesn't speak French, I think one in two is important enough to adjust laws and the way of live to not exclude English speaking people inside Quebec.

Some of the classes I mentioned can be important, but it doesn't mean they're important to everyone. Their all obligatory credits, which may or may not be useful in the present, or in the future. Kids are failing at math, does that mean changing the curriculum and removing French to add a minimum of 3 math classes obligatory in 12th grade help more? - Contact your local school board, inform yourself about why kids have to learn English and French, and why spend the billions of dollars (which you never referenced for proof) when kids just fail the subject? - It's not my decision, so debating about this subject here will end up no where.

Math, English and even Gym are more important than learning French. A least when the average student finishes school he might use something he learned from one of those classes. I'll use my old high school for example, it had a French Immersion program yet half the students who were enrolled in it (15 kids have not kept up with it, nor do they plan on pursuing French). How do I know this? Because they're all in my group of friends. We don't use French in Ontario, people lose the language if it doesn't consume their lives, it's pointless to teach it to us if we never plan on using it. If you wanted to make this course an elective then that would be fine in my books but making this mandatory is costing a lot of dough, and with little to no results. No one speaks French in Toronto, go to Alberta or B.C I'm sure you'll see the same results.

I also don't have a bias against America, but I said that if you care about your money so much that you don't want to pay the tax for a second language, which may potentially be helpful to others, then move elsewhere (e.g. = for example).

But if money is all you care for, then stop paying your taxes, and move elsewhere (e.g. the US).

You said that if money is all you cared for then move to America, that was ignorant, simple as that.

And the people who speak English in Quebec are either bilingual, or recently moved from another place

Since I wanted you to back up such a false claim as France being less internationally informed as us has caused you to go on the defense and assume I want facts behind everything I say then I'll ask the same as you.
Prove to me that the English speaking people inside Quebec are either bilingual or have recently moved there, you're basically denying that any English person lives there and never learned the language

When you make outrageous claims like this you've got to back it up, just like when you said that France's media is only geared towards France. It's not like France has any concern with what goes on in the world around them

I'm not against English people having rights there, just as vice versa.

You already said that the only people living in Quebec are recent immigrants or people that are bilingual. jesus fucking christ.

[Cops]

Prove to me the following or go fuck yourself, basically I've stated a lot of opinions but you've stated a lot of broad statements.

- Every person in Quebec is an immigrant or bilingual

- France's media is only geared towards France, and that us Canadians are more external as far as media goes. Speaking as someone who studies media I think that's a bunch of crock shit.


I've stated the following opinions, that's right dip shit opinions

- Billions of dollars isn't worth teaching kids a language that they can only use when they're in Quebec, even if those 17 percent of people actually use it outside of Quebec (they don't)

- From my experiences learning French in Canada is
a) useless
b) useless
c) rarely turns out to be something that the person will follow through with
d) economically, is a terrible idea
e) takes funding from other important things

and why do you ask do we do all this? Just to appease Quebec, fuck that shit.

[Hakaku]

limited to one province in one country.

No, you can do all those in over 3 provinces, I've stated multiple times, french IS spoken outside Quebec. It has special status in Ontario, and is an official language along with English in New Brunswick. You can also work on an international level, not necessarily restricted to Canada.

We don't use French in Ontario, people lose the language if it doesn't consume their lives, it's pointless to teach it to us if we never plan on using it. If you wanted to make this course an elective then that would be fine in my books but making this mandatory is costing a lot of dough, and with little to no results. No one speaks French in Toronto, go to Alberta or B.C I'm sure you'll see the same results.

You'd be surprised at how many people do speak French in Ontario, and Toronto itself has a fair sized french-speaking community. If there weren't, why would there be colleges, lycees, theaters, schools offered uniquely in French? (1, 2)

You said that if money is all you cared for move to America, that was ignorant, simple as that.

Yes, I used America as an example of where you could potentially move away. The United States is the closest country to Canada, so you'd even save more money by moving there. (if anything, I'm being more ignorant about you caring solely about money)

Since I wanted you to back up such a flase claim as France being less internationally informed as us has caused you to go on the defense and assume I want facts behind everything I say then I'll ask the same as you.
Prove to me that the English speaking people inside Quebec are either bilingual or recently move there, you're basically denying that any English person lives there and never learned the language

Then I shall: English speaking Quebecer (this page, and all of its sources) "high rates of bilingualism and increased contact and openness to francophones" ... or "speak limited french"

As for french people in Ontario: Franco-Ontarian. "the majority of Franco-Ontarians are, bilingual in English"

When you make outrageous claims like this you've got to back it up, just like when you said that France's media is only geared towards France. It's not like France has any concern with what goes on in the world around them

Google makes this easy
The first sentence, which reads
"Les Français sont maintenant plus enclins à encourager leurs nouveaux «produits» locaux "
translates as "The French are now more inclined to encourage their new local 'products'"
The article later discusses not only popular singers trying to make their way into the French media, but it discusses the problems between the relationship France has with other things (such as Canada). Pass it through google translator to more or less understand the article's gist.

You already said that the only people living in Quebec are recent immigrants or people that are bilingual. jesus fucking christ.

Your comment is completely irrelevant to what I wrote. People can still be bilingual, but claim their native language as English or French. There are people who claim and hold on to their native language which is English, but they have knowledge of French since it's a necessity to them. Even if their children attend fully English schools in Quebec, they'll catch on to some French because it's taught in school and a necessity elsewhere.

The opposite is true for Franco-Ontarians, in Ontario.

[DoTheFandango]

what's with this forum and its fucking "USA (aka fags) vs. Everyone Else" approach to threads.

We already know we suck people, leave us the fuck alone.

[Hakaku]

Prove to me the following or go fuck yourself, basically I've stated a lot of opinions but you've stated a lot of broad statements.

- Every person in Quebec is an immigrant or bilingual

Scroll up, and for the record, so you'll stop distorting my words, I wrote this:

And the people who speak English in Quebec are either bilingual, or recently moved from another place (in which, children can be educated in English to full extent).

Anyhow, you seem to want to turn this into a hate thread. You keep asking me to reference things, so I have. When I asked it before, you failed to provide some in return.

@one of your previous comments:
A dialect is the difference between American English, and British English. Or how about Scottish or Southern American accents? Or Canadian French, Acadian French, Nigerian French, Haitian French, Hexagonal French. France itself has multitudes of dialects, it doesn't mean that everyone can understand each other 120%, but if you're more used to the accent, it's easier to understand. Frenchmen are less aclimatised to the Canadian accent, it's not the end of the world. They can still understand you if you try hard enough, but if they decide to be ignorant, what more can you do about it?

[Cops]

what's with this forum and its fucking "USA (aka fags) vs. Everyone Else" approach to threads.

We already know we suck people, leave us the fuck alone.

I actually hate when threads turn into Europeans vs America or Canada vs America, it just turns into a bash fest.