USA court states torture is expected, prisoners are not 'persons'

[Noah]

Thats depend on the laws of your country. maybe in Africa or some radical Islamic countries, that how things work. If your government will apply a rule that allow the police force to shoot your head if you are suspect, than it will be like that.

fortunately, we live in countries where people life are precious, so we try to keep the people alive... :turned:

*whoosh* it goes!

[FarScape]

well i gave an article showing that it isn't only used in life and death situiations, and in a lot of cases, its used just to hurt people when the cops aren't at risk. then you say "lets take their guns too" and i'm not sure what that has to do with anything we're talking about

Vat, its like saying guns are not only used by the police or by armies, its also used by teenagers in school or malls or gangsters in the street.

Like guns shouldn't be in the hands of those who are not suppose to shoot it, Shockers shouldn't be used just to hurt people or torture, and if they are using it for that, then they should be punish. Is it matter if a jailer use a shocker or his fist to hurt others for mean of punishment? It's not.

I really can't see why people tell me to shut up or that I'm wrong... explain where I speak wrong :-(

[Noah]

The way it was first introduced into law enforcement was as a last step before using lethal force; they were only to be used where lethal force was the only availaible alternative. Do you think it would be considered acceptable to shoot bolt's friend and every other drunk who is unable to respond and bumps into an officer? Or shoot someone when they interrupt public meetings? People have been doing these things a long time before tasers were available, and cops always managed to control them. The fact of the matter is, getting shot with a taser has a much higher chance of killing you than does getting roughed up with a baton.

they were only to be used where lethal force was the only availaible alternative.

You are defending it with "It's better than the police using physical violence", but that hardly constitutes as situations where lethal force is considered. There's a pretty big difference between shooting someone with a gun, and beating a suspect up for doing a wrong move. The tazer is being used in way to many situations, you can compare it with the police shooting everyone who got tazed with a gun instead.

Right now it is being used to protect the officer, rather than to protect the life of the citizens that would have been shot with a gun instead.

[Vatican Assassin]

You are defending it with "It's better than the police using physical violence", but that hardly constitutes as situations where lethal force is considered. There's a pretty big difference between shooting someone with a gun, and beating a suspect up for doing a wrong move. The tazer is being used in way to many situations, you can compare it with the police shooting everyone who got tazed with a gun instead.

Right now it is being used to protect the officer, rather than to protect the life of the citizens that would have been shot with a gun instead.

nope, read the article, its not just being used to protect the officer, its not just being used in situations where a gun would be used instead

[FarScape]

nope, read the article, its not just being used to protect the officer, its not just being used in situations where a gun would be used instead

Oh god...
why it so hard to understand that its not the problem of the tool but those who use it?
For a police officer who use it because he feel threatened by someone on street, it will be the best tool he could have that doesn't kill (and I don't speak about abusing it and setting it on 50,000 shock).

If some idiots who run the jail torture prisoners with that, whose fault is that? the tazer or the fucking guards?! would you ban the tazer that help the cops on the street and use it when really needed or the crazy guards who are sick minded and use it to pain other for pleasure or mean of punishment (and thats against the law!).

[Noah]

nope, read the article, its not just being used to protect the officer, its not just being used in situations where a gun would be used instead

Ok, I took too much value to your previous post, as I merely skimmed through that long article.

My point still stands, in many of the cases where tasers are being used, it has been used in situations where such a degree of force wouldn't have been used previously. If the same degree of force had been used by the police in Norway in some of those situations, the single cases alone would have caused a massive media uproar, protest marches, and the internal affairs reviewing the case. As a source to this, I can mention the Obiora case, for those here in Europe who might have heard about that.

FarScape:
I agree with that, the taser itself could be used in many situations where it actually could save lives opposed to using the traditional methods. However, it's very nature also makes its so much easier to be abused in situations where it would be hard to abuse the traditional methods. The question is if the negative side upsets the positive side.

[Zerzera]

Ok, I took too much value to your previous post, as I merely skimmed through that long article.

My point still stands, in many of the cases where tasers are being used, it has been used in situations where such a degree of force wouldn't have been used previously. If the same degree of force had been used by the police in Norway in some of those situations, the single cases alone would have caused a massive media uproar, protest marches, and the internal affairs reviewing the case. As a source to this, I can mention the Obiora case, for those here in Europe who might have heard about that.

You make the mistake of trying to compare one region of the world with another. Here, in the Netherlands, our police is currently as moderate as can be. And they are doing fine. There seems no need for the barbaric approach in our country, and I like that vibe.
But not every country can afford this method, and it's even possible that it changes for the Netherlands too within a few decades.
If there is instability in a country, police will probably have to use more force on the streets too. If there is corruption, or a bad infrastructure, this might have effect on the way police has to deal with certain situations.
A policeman is just an average educated person, you can't claim that a policeman has higher moral standards or is a better person, just because of their profession. And they are likely, just like anyone else, to misuse a weapon like a taser in a situation where they feel threatened.

[FarScape]

Good zerzera, now you probably heard about the crime in the united state.

now ill shut up as you requested.

[Vatican Assassin]

Ok, I took too much value to your previous post, as I merely skimmed through that long article.

My point still stands, in many of the cases where tasers are being used, it has been used in situations where such a degree of force wouldn't have been used previously. If the same degree of force had been used by the police in Norway in some of those situations, the single cases alone would have caused a massive media uproar, protest marches, and the internal affairs reviewing the case. As a source to this, I can mention the Obiora case, for those here in Europe who might have heard about that.

FarScape:
I agree with that, the taser itself could be used in many situations where it actually could save lives opposed to using the traditional methods. However, it's very nature also makes its so much easier to be abused in situations where it would be hard to abuse the traditional methods. The question is if the negative side upsets the positive side.

well said noah

farscape, the problem is police think they are using a non lethal weapon so its gets used too often and too quickly

[Noah]

Well, USA and Norway are supposed to be equals in culture, freedom and society. It's pretty hard not to have similar cases in mind that has hit close to home.

[FarScape]

well said noah

farscape, the problem is police think they are using a non lethal weapon so its gets used too often and too quickly

and with that i agree with you that it shouldn't be like that... B)

[Zerzera]

Well, USA and Norway are supposed to be equals in culture, freedom and society.

But they are not I guess.

[Soul Survivor]

a few things...

no one here knows anything about these suspected terrorists...it isnt your job to determine whether or not they were 'clearly' not. You are just talking out of your ass. Our gov't is very good at gathering intelligence. If the trained professionals say someone was a suspect I think I'll believe them over an uneducated 17 year old on some internet forums (here come the "well i have my high school diploma and I watch fox news" comments).

Theres no problem with the tazer, and it doesnt concern anyone here, unless you plan on lashing out against the police and just dont want it used against you. Dont act like a jackass and the popo wont have to restrain you. Its safest for the officers to use the tazer.

Dont try to compare norway to america...we arent equals seeing as how we're the ones fixing the fucking world and youre sitting on youre ass whning about dumb shit

[Noah]

Dont try to compare norway to america...we arent equals seeing as how we're the ones fixing the fucking world and youre sitting on youre ass whning about dumb shit

Dont try to compare norway to america...we arent equals seeing as how we're the ones fixing the fucking world

we're the ones fixing the fucking world

[ConcreteSchlyrd]

no one here knows anything about these suspected terrorists...it isnt your job to determine whether or not they were 'clearly' not. You are just talking out of your ass. Our gov't is very good at gathering intelligence. If the trained professionals say someone was a suspect I think I'll believe them over an uneducated 17 year old on some internet forums (here come the "well i have my high school diploma and I watch fox news" comments).

They're not perfect, by any means. The government has begun to track people regardless of any actual offense, as I can personally attest to--my fiancee is perma-flagged on some sort of national database as a "terrorist suspect," even without being any sort of rabble-rouser. She doesn't belong to any groups (political or otherwise), she doesn't/hasn't attended any rallies of any sorts, and she most certainly doesn't actively plot anything (other than what the shit she's going to do after grad school).

Yet, when she tries to do natural, domestic things like apply for a home loan or board a domestic flight, she's treated like a security threat. Now, you tell me that that's top flight intelligence. Seems more to me like "let's flag everyone and force them to prove their innocence." It's bullshit. Not to get all "old timey was the best timey," but this shit wouldn't happen ten years ago.

And that's not even taking into account people who are illegally arrested, then later released when "oops, we made a mistake." There's no precedent for that, when we're supposedly a free society.

Theres no problem with the tazer, and it doesnt concern anyone here, unless you plan on lashing out against the police and just dont want it used against you. Dont act like a jackass and the popo wont have to restrain you. Its safest for the officers to use the tazer.

...when in life-threatening situations, yes. However, it's become a total crutch and used in situations where its use is just escalating the problem at hand.

Dont try to compare norway to america...we arent equals seeing as how we're the ones fixing the fucking world and youre sitting on youre ass whning about dumb shit

Don't be so quick to say that "we're the ones fixing the fucking world," when we're also actively fucking it up. I'm not saying we're the only ones, but we're not angels. Not by a long shot.