Interesting debate

[Jerome Scuggs]

but if everyone has their own world is reality not subjective since each person has their own world that they can perceive and act in how they want?

No, people are still limited in many ways by reality.

Take the government for instance. Their subjective view that money is infinite and our Fed can just print more of it to fix the economy is coming to meet the cold, hard truth of Objective reality. The result? Subprime mortgage crisis, baby!

[Fluffz]

as you are ambiguous between the philosophical differences between intention and purpose and you also make a fallacious causal relationship which does not exist in my argument.

not at all. my intention in raising a kid that perceives a different world for the sake of proof is the same as your parents intention to raise a kid that understands reality as they do and thus being effective. Knowing from what we evolved you obviously cant know that is real either.

but i have to agree that those english words give me a hard time at this point, so ... good night

[Jerome Scuggs]

not at all. my intention in raising a kid that perceives a different world for the sake of proof is the same as your parents intention to raise a kid that understands reality as they do and thus being effective. Knowing from what we evolved you obviously cant know that is real either.

but i have to agree that those english words give me a hard time at this point, so ... good night

In trying to prove that the person has a different reality you would have to conclude that is there is a universal reality that is otherwise perceived - which is what causes you to attempt to change the reality.

But, if you removed your influence from the person's life - as most parents do around a certain age - the person would come around to Reality as it is, not Reality as you want him to see it. Specifically, perhaps his own, undiluted, yet subjective perception of reality - not yours. But it would be shaped by the real, objective reality nonetheless. Your experiment, then instead further proves the existence of a 'reality'.

[Fluffz]

In trying to prove that the person has a different reality you would have to conclude that is there is a universal reality that is otherwise perceived - which is what causes you to attempt to change the reality.

no way, there could as good as be 2 different universal realities, one you understand and one you learned to ignore because noticing it would have been counter productive to your our evolution. or none, but meh

[Jerome Scuggs]

no way, there could as good as be 2 different universal realities, one you understand and one you learned to ignore because noticing it would have been counter productive to your our evolution. or none, but meh

If you truly believe this, step into a reality with no gravity and jump off a building. You'll meet Reality at the concrete.

edit: "there could as good as be 2 different universal realities" - we're not dealing with possibilities. There could be, but it's not proven. Prove it and you gain alot of leverage with your logic, but when you delve into the "could be", the argument becomes absurd because I then have to argue in a world that you can modify arbitrarily to defeat any argument I might provide.

[Fluffz]

oh are we at this point already? you proove there is only one and ill proove there is none. than ill get us a nobel price.

[Jerome Scuggs]

oh are we at this point already? you proove there is only one and ill proove there is none. than ill get us a nobel price.

As I've stated before, there's already an entire body of knowledge on that and if you refuse to read it, then don't participate in this thread. This thread starts with an assumption for ease of argument, because having to prove it would take pages and pages of thorough logical induction and deduction and even more analysis and i'm not willing to provide that for you if you're not interested enough to read up on it yourself. I've spent a few years of my life learning enough to come to my conclusions, I don't expect you'll learn the answer from a single post in a thread. The burden of proof here belongs to you: prove it doesn't exist.

[Galleleo]

Has a tree that falls in the middle of the forest where no one can hear or see it fall still fallen?

[Epinephrine]

This reminds me of how Kant solved the debate between the rationalists and the empiricists with the categorical imperative... or not.

[Eric is God]

Reality (definitions):
1. That which is real; an actual existence; that which is not imagination, fiction, or pretense; that which has objective existence, and is not merely an idea.
2. Philosophy: something that exists independently of ideas concerning it.

Subjective (definitions):
1. Existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought.
2. Philosophy: relating to or of the nature of an object as it is known in the mind as distinct from a thing in itself.

By their very definitions, reality cannot be subjective. Unless someone wants to argue that our definitions of these concepts are themselves subjective in which case you have a circular, unending argument that cannot be reconciled making the entire debate pointless.

Now that we have that settled:

Average age of those posting on this thread (not including myself or those who do not post their age): 19.875

Some better economist quotes for Jerome:

1. An economist is a man who states the obvious in terms of the incomprehensible. - Alfred A. Knopf

2. If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a conclusion. - George Bernard Shaw

And my personal favorite:

3. An economist is an expert who will know tomorrow why the things he predicted yesterday didn't happen today. - Laurence J. Peter

[Eric is God]

God dammit Leo, you skewed my average. Get the fuck out of my sample size! :grin:

[Jerome Scuggs]

This reminds me of how Kant solved the debate between the rationalists and the empiricists with the categorical imperative... or not.

it's hard to say that when the person you're arguing against doesn't read kant

[Jerome Scuggs]

Some better economist quotes for Jerome:

1. An economist is a man who states the obvious in terms of the incomprehensible. - Alfred A. Knopf

2. If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a conclusion. - George Bernard Shaw

And my personal favorite:

3. An economist is an expert who will know tomorrow why the things he predicted yesterday didn't happen today. - Laurence J. Peter

The best:

The development of a profession of economists is an offshoot of interventionism. The professional economist is the specialist who is instrumental in designing various measures of government interference with business. He is an expert in the field of economic legislation, which today invariably aims at hindering the operation of the market economy.

-Ludwig von Mises

...I think it puts yours into perspective. B)

[Summa]

Reality (definitions):
1. That which is real; an actual existence; that which is not imagination, fiction, or pretense; that which has objective existence, and is not merely an idea.
2. Philosophy: something that exists independently of ideas concerning it.

Subjective (definitions):
1. Existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought.
2. Philosophy: relating to or of the nature of an object as it is known in the mind as distinct from a thing in itself.

By their very definitions, reality cannot be subjective. Unless someone wants to argue that our definitions of these concepts are themselves subjective in which case you have a circular, unending argument that cannot be reconciled making the entire debate pointless.

Now that we have that settled:

Average age of those posting on this thread (not including myself or those who do not post their age): 19.875

Some better economist quotes for Jerome:

1. An economist is a man who states the obvious in terms of the incomprehensible. - Alfred A. Knopf

2. If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a conclusion. - George Bernard Shaw

And my personal favorite:

3. An economist is an expert who will know tomorrow why the things he predicted yesterday didn't happen today. - Laurence J. Peter

first things first, let me change it if it doesn't meet your stupid ass definitions, seeing how we now have a stickler who doesn't just take the implied definition and whom i have to spell things out for. the perception of reality is relative to the viewer and since no viewer experiences the exact same thing then reality is different for each individual.

secondly, jerome has still not addressed my post addressed to him and it is annoying me

thirdly, please do not bring that reality is nothing bullshit in here please. we are arguing under the assumption that reality in fact exists, but if you want to bring in that crap and erase everything then you're a fag who needs to get bent.

so in the end all i want is jerome to address my post that i addressed to him

[Eric is God]

first things first, let me change it if it doesn't meet your stupid ass definitions, seeing how we now have a stickler who doesn't just take the implied definition and whom i have to spell things out for.

I'd love to take credit for those, but people much smarter than myself came up with them. Just so we are clear on what a definition is:

Definition of the word definition:
1. The act of defining or making definite, distinct, or clear.
2. The formal statement of the meaning or significance of a word, phrase, etc.
3. The condition of being definite, distinct, or clearly outlined.

Implied definition you say?

Implied (definitions):
1. To indicate or suggest without being explicitly stated.
2. Not directly or specifically made known.

Implied definition... I apologize for being this dense, but you really will have to spell out to me how your argument revolves around something definite being indefinite. I'm sorry, I really am. I'm struggling to keep up by looking all these new words up in the dictionary so I humbly beg your patience.

the perception of reality is relative to the viewer and since no viewer experiences the exact same thing then reality is different for each individual.

Again, I apologize for being technical about all this, but if you want to change the meaning of a word than you might be better off utilizing one of the other many wonderful words better suited for your purposes.

secondly, jerome has still not addressed my post addressed to him and it is annoying me

Might I suggest one of any number of relaxation techniques you might find helpful when desperately awaiting a response to one of your online inquiries? Yoga perhaps, or masturbation? I can point you to some sites that might assist you with either of these.

thirdly, please do not bring that reality is nothing bullshit in here please. we are arguing under the assumption that reality in fact exists, but if you want to bring in that crap and erase everything then you're a fag who needs to get bent.

I don't remember stating reality is nothing. I'm fairly certain I quoted some definitions (see definitions for the word definition above) on reality in my post, suggesting that reality is in fact something that exists, independent of individual perception.

And please don't tell me to get bent. You sound like Bart Simpson from the 1st or 2nd season of the Simpsons, which aired right around the time you were born.

so in the end all i want is jerome to address my post that i addressed to him

In the end isn't that what we all want?! I take back the suggestion of masturbation as I see you've found that special someone who provides all the arousal you could possibly need.


See NOW I'm being as ass. The little things in life are truly the ones that bring the most joy ^-^