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Cops let me preface my post a little first. I have no love for the communist party of China. It was because of them that I moved to Canada in the first place and I rather like our country. That said, I'm not so filled with bias as to how other countries do things that I fail to acknowledge their accomplishments.
All I can say is that these things are all evolving. In North America, we have something called eminent domain, a point of law which is frequently used by government for projects deemed worthy. Over the years, the law has been stricter and stricter as people have demanded more rights. There was a great article in the Toronto Star a few months ago about building the dams on the Lake Ontario/St. Lawrence river opening, and how a town of a few thousand were forced from their homes to build a dam. People getting moved out of their homes happens all the time.
One important fact that often gets overlooked though is the absolute poor quality of housing that exists that people are moved out of, and the vastly superior housing that people are compensated with when they do leave. I think unless you actually see these places with your own eyes it is hard to understand, because once you do, you realize that moving from 300 year old crumbling and cramped house with no running water into a brand new condo 3x the size with all modern amenities isn't such a bad deal. Yes people were forced out in the end, but the point is, such things happen in every country around the world and should be recognized as such.
An important point to this is that as this has been done more and more, in fact people within China have slowly been protesting unfair seizures themselves. People have been getting better and better compensation, and there are even prominent people who have successfully lobbied for historical preservation. These are all grassroots changes which would have been IMPOSSIBLE 30 years ago.
As for labour laws, that too is something where China is evolving quite fast. It took Ontario decades to raise the minimum wage, and it took North America decades of protesting unions before proper labour laws were created in our democracies. China is just starting, give them a chance, because there already has been massive improvements.
Cops, I have a question for you. Do you ever read the Chinese media? Do you read Hong Kong newspapers? Do you watch Chinese news? I highly doubt it, because you probably wouldn't understand it anyway (and the English-language South Morning China Post isn't free online). How can you possibly detect bias, when you're only seeing one side of the story? As liberal as say the New York Times can be, I have seen countless examples of stories in the NYTimes about Hong Kong, which were so far off the actual truth as to be laughable when compared with asking my relatives the real truth in Hong Kong from their own experiences.
The point is they CANNOT just completely revert, they'd be risking civil war. You have to understand, they went from literally North Korea to how they are now in 30 years. There is no going back. If they revert, there will be civil war. If you actually just visit China and visit the cities which have developed the most, you'd see that they make Canada look like we're from the 50s. These are drastic changes, changes which absolutely cannot be ignored.
Furthermore, the idea of 'democracy' is a fluid idea on a spectrum. Allow me to explain.
China is on one side of it. There are 150 million members of the Chinese Communist Party, and it is pretty easy to join. If you are a party member, you can vote for your party representitives and at the very top, the legislature and the governing politburo. China doesn't have one dictator or one king, like in the Mao days. It is run by committee of the people at the top, who rose up the ranks to their positions. It is true that these people somewhat rule the country, but it is a group of people, frequently advised by expert committees of the smartest minds of the entire Earth (for instance one of the law professors at UofT who taught my brother was part of a committee which designed the Chinese credit card system). This is similar to how things have ALWAYS been run in China for 3000 years, although is still vastly more open than back in those days as there is no emperor and foreign help is appreciated.
On another level, you have countries like Japan, where there is 'democracy' but essentially 1 party rule for the last 60 years except for 6 months inbetween. The party leaders and cabinet are all decided by the party elite and the 'people' have very little choice in the matter. Elites also decide the real policy and dictate what happens in the country.
You have countries like in France where leaders are elected, but the vast majority all attended one university and are all part of the political elite.
Then you have ancient Greece where every individual person had a direct vote in things, an idea which would be unthinkable in today's version of democracy.
Just saying that China has no 'freedom' and no democracy is pretty narrow, because those definitions are fluid. Yes the citizens of China don't have the same freedoms as we do here, but even here our freedoms are constantly evolving (i.e. just 20 years ago abortion was illegal in Canada, and just a few years ago gay marriage was too). But you have to understand that the base people are coming from in China virtually NO freedom whatsoever, to what they have now. Now people can travel to cities to find jobs, many can travel out of the country with no real problem, can surf international websites and watch international tv, can work whatever job they want (instead of whatever they are told), can freely criticize the party to their friends and family and not get carted away (unless they are leaders of organized movements) and can buy whatever they can afford as well. These are MASSIVE freedoms which did not even exist before.
Your idea that you would all be arrested for posting on the TW forums is pretty laughable. The communist party could care less what individual people do. They cannot stop it. They only stop people who are actively trying to bring down top officials or bring down the state. Everyone else it honestly doesn't matter.
Do you think no one knows about Tianamen? Most educated people, and certain Beijing residents know damn well about it. Do you think no one reads foreign news? You can catch virtually any internationally broadcast channel in China and surf foreign websites, it's just that people in China actually don't trust the Western media because of perceived bias. Do you think they seriously 'block out the internet'? With the exception of a few key words that you shouldn't mention, you can virtually see anything and you can just as easily purposely misspell tib3t to get your point across. Do you think people are really that scared of the police? When in Shanghai I saw multiple times where the police were yelling at people to stop and they could care less because they knew the police were powerless to leave their standing spots to actually do anything.
There were also a record number of protests last year in China as well, something like 80,000 I believe. This number is increasing exponentially. Sure most of them don't have 'permits' but the government can't stop it all. The genie has been let out of the bottle, and change is and will be happening.
The olympics in many ways has been very positive for China. It's been good because it's showed the country that it can finally shake off it's own problems with it's self-perception as the country with something to prove and as such as a country much more dangerous to the world community. It's allowed more foreigners and more foreign journalists into the country than ever before in the HISTORY of China. It's allowed more citizens of the country to see and meet foreigners and learn more about the world than ever before. These are things which in the coming years will snowball into greater effects. My own prediction is that by the time we're 50 China will have evolved to most likely a 1 party democracy at the same level of the current South Korea and Japan and possibly even further.
Originally posted by Cops
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One important fact that often gets overlooked though is the absolute poor quality of housing that exists that people are moved out of, and the vastly superior housing that people are compensated with when they do leave. I think unless you actually see these places with your own eyes it is hard to understand, because once you do, you realize that moving from 300 year old crumbling and cramped house with no running water into a brand new condo 3x the size with all modern amenities isn't such a bad deal. Yes people were forced out in the end, but the point is, such things happen in every country around the world and should be recognized as such.
An important point to this is that as this has been done more and more, in fact people within China have slowly been protesting unfair seizures themselves. People have been getting better and better compensation, and there are even prominent people who have successfully lobbied for historical preservation. These are all grassroots changes which would have been IMPOSSIBLE 30 years ago.
As for labour laws, that too is something where China is evolving quite fast. It took Ontario decades to raise the minimum wage, and it took North America decades of protesting unions before proper labour laws were created in our democracies. China is just starting, give them a chance, because there already has been massive improvements.
I have given you a lot of respect for your level of education, I think you should give the same amount of respect and not write people off. I go to school to study media and detect biases, half the time I'm in school I'm reading news articles cutting through the shit to find the real answer. Considering Canada is one of the best outlets for journalism it is foolish to claim 'I'm influenced by western bias'. I'd also like to mention that you seem to have a bias towards China, thus you can't act impartial on this matter because you have feelings and emotions involved.
People in China are still governed by the Communist Party, people may have more food in their stomachs and more freedoms but those freedoms are given and taken away by the Communist Party. When the day comes that China fights for 'real freedom' then I'll say the country has changed. Right now those new freedoms that they have been accustom to can and will be taken away if the government deems it necessary. When a country could revert to its former self then the country hasn't truly progressed.
Furthermore, the idea of 'democracy' is a fluid idea on a spectrum. Allow me to explain.
China is on one side of it. There are 150 million members of the Chinese Communist Party, and it is pretty easy to join. If you are a party member, you can vote for your party representitives and at the very top, the legislature and the governing politburo. China doesn't have one dictator or one king, like in the Mao days. It is run by committee of the people at the top, who rose up the ranks to their positions. It is true that these people somewhat rule the country, but it is a group of people, frequently advised by expert committees of the smartest minds of the entire Earth (for instance one of the law professors at UofT who taught my brother was part of a committee which designed the Chinese credit card system). This is similar to how things have ALWAYS been run in China for 3000 years, although is still vastly more open than back in those days as there is no emperor and foreign help is appreciated.
On another level, you have countries like Japan, where there is 'democracy' but essentially 1 party rule for the last 60 years except for 6 months inbetween. The party leaders and cabinet are all decided by the party elite and the 'people' have very little choice in the matter. Elites also decide the real policy and dictate what happens in the country.
You have countries like in France where leaders are elected, but the vast majority all attended one university and are all part of the political elite.
Then you have ancient Greece where every individual person had a direct vote in things, an idea which would be unthinkable in today's version of democracy.
Just saying that China has no 'freedom' and no democracy is pretty narrow, because those definitions are fluid. Yes the citizens of China don't have the same freedoms as we do here, but even here our freedoms are constantly evolving (i.e. just 20 years ago abortion was illegal in Canada, and just a few years ago gay marriage was too). But you have to understand that the base people are coming from in China virtually NO freedom whatsoever, to what they have now. Now people can travel to cities to find jobs, many can travel out of the country with no real problem, can surf international websites and watch international tv, can work whatever job they want (instead of whatever they are told), can freely criticize the party to their friends and family and not get carted away (unless they are leaders of organized movements) and can buy whatever they can afford as well. These are MASSIVE freedoms which did not even exist before.
Your idea that you would all be arrested for posting on the TW forums is pretty laughable. The communist party could care less what individual people do. They cannot stop it. They only stop people who are actively trying to bring down top officials or bring down the state. Everyone else it honestly doesn't matter.
Do you think no one knows about Tianamen? Most educated people, and certain Beijing residents know damn well about it. Do you think no one reads foreign news? You can catch virtually any internationally broadcast channel in China and surf foreign websites, it's just that people in China actually don't trust the Western media because of perceived bias. Do you think they seriously 'block out the internet'? With the exception of a few key words that you shouldn't mention, you can virtually see anything and you can just as easily purposely misspell tib3t to get your point across. Do you think people are really that scared of the police? When in Shanghai I saw multiple times where the police were yelling at people to stop and they could care less because they knew the police were powerless to leave their standing spots to actually do anything.
There were also a record number of protests last year in China as well, something like 80,000 I believe. This number is increasing exponentially. Sure most of them don't have 'permits' but the government can't stop it all. The genie has been let out of the bottle, and change is and will be happening.
The olympics in many ways has been very positive for China. It's been good because it's showed the country that it can finally shake off it's own problems with it's self-perception as the country with something to prove and as such as a country much more dangerous to the world community. It's allowed more foreigners and more foreign journalists into the country than ever before in the HISTORY of China. It's allowed more citizens of the country to see and meet foreigners and learn more about the world than ever before. These are things which in the coming years will snowball into greater effects. My own prediction is that by the time we're 50 China will have evolved to most likely a 1 party democracy at the same level of the current South Korea and Japan and possibly even further.
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