China is the shit (olympics thread)

[Kolar]

If you want to use a public space to hold a protest maybe but if I want to stand out on Parliament Hill and say what I want about any political party no one can stop me. It's more of an issue when each person who wants to be a part of it has to register and can be denied the ability to demonstrate, the system is designed to create a climate of fear so no one will actually stand up. If you plan to hold a protest where there could be a turn out of thousands it would be a good idea to notify the police so they can close off any roads and notify local businesses and possibly step up patrols if there are going to be counter-protests. I don't think you can in any way compare the two. Freedom of Assembly doesn't give you the right to unduly disrupt the lives of others.


From everything that I have read and talking to those who have left China to live in Canada, Internet activities are closely monitored. As Vykromond said one site can be blocked today, unblocked tomorrow and so on. Again the idea is not to stop the free flow of information but to create an environment where no one will find it worth their time to challenge the stupidity and arbitrary nature of it. the CPC also recruits tens of thousands of people our age to scour the Internet for dissent. I don't think it's laughable to believe this kind of discussion could not exist under such conditions or that I could be arrested for it.


For the CPC to continue to exist they believe there can be no dissent. With a country of 1.3 billion I can understand their want to hold onto control. 1.3 billion people is a powerful group which could easily find a few elite unworthy of leadership. The Olympics was a performance for the people of China as much as it was for the world. They wanted to show they could pull off an amazing performance and they did. But I believe it was misguided to present it to the world while reneging on many of the basic freedoms they promised the IOC and the international community. For someone not a Chinese national I think it's a little condescending to do that and expect everyone to just forget about their human rights record and other terrible things they seem to do on purpose while parading their accomplishments and progress.


No one doubts the ability of China to put on a show or to do anything else. They have nothing to prove to us in their ability, they do however have a lot to improve on socially. Cops made a very good argument, the problem isn't that our "biased" perception of China has to change but that change has to happen there. Many of the freedoms we have in Canada and the United States are enshrined into our Constitution, not only that, those freedoms and our form of a liberal Democracy are tradition in the West. I don't see that progress because if the party feels for there to be any kind of social order, the status-quo, the CPC will always have to hold onto power and crush dissent thus never allowing the kind of freedoms we have here. You can't slowly change in that kind of environment.


A 1 party democracy is also one hell of an oxymoron. China is a single party state. It would make no difference if they were allowed to vote for a single party and call it a Democracy. A Democracy can not exist while one party rules alone.

While the Olympics have traditionally been held in contentious regions like the USSR, Nazi Germany and so on today I think it should stand to be a way of increasing international cooperation and a cultural exchange. I can't say it helped the USSR or Germany's relations with the West but I think we can do better in 2008. I don't think they should have been denied the award, it's important to a lot of people but the IOC has to in the future hold these countries to their commitments or they should be passed for another host city.

[HateTheFake]

too many long ass posts to read, feel free to summarize

[Cops]

^

Some people believe that China has progressed, the word progress can be taken two ways, mainly social and economic progression. Everyone agrees that China has progressed economically but the real argument is whether China has progressed socially.

Main argument for social progression: China today is better than it was thirty years ago, there's more individual freedoms.


Main argument against social progression: The country is still controlled by the Communist Party, there's no real 'democracy' and any rights and freedoms are given by the Communist Party. Any right and freedom given is still heavily monitored and controlled by the state.


I think what the main argument stems from the fact that Epinephrine feels I haven't given China enough credit for making 'significant changes'. I believe the country has made progress but I refuse to change my views that China is anything to be admired. Like I said before the country needs to change, not our opinions of it. Epinephrine's just more hopeful than I am that change will take place sooner than later and the growth in which that change is taking place.

A 1 party democracy is also one hell of an oxymoron.

[HateTheFake]

i can easily say from experience talking about a place or idea that has 2 different views is never gonna get solved if both people think they are right. Who knows you both might be in your own way. But unless at this point your playing devils advocate (whoever is still arguing) no real need to declare the same points back and forth.

[Capital Knockers]

I am 100% sure I will never be detained and tortured by the USA. This isn't brainwashing.

I am sure because there's no way for the government to "take me away" and torture me. That is unless you think there's a fleet of black vans that pull up beside you and agents jump out with chloroform and drive off with you.

And if that happend, you'd better believe that there would be plenty of people making a fuss about it, both locally and nationally through my representatives. Unless they government decided to also kidnap my family and the local news anchors and detain them too. Even then, people would cry out against that, esclating the situation. Why? Because that's what happens when things like that occur in the US. Things are different in China: I doubt that you could call your local news, get them to broadcast it nationally, and even get ahold of your local gov't representatives for your cause. This would happen in the US. Fuck, even when people complain about pot holes, they can get local news and gov't officials to listen. I think they'd listen even harder if it was torture and kidnapping.

Those people we tortured were taken from battlefields by soldiers, something that doesn't happen to our own people in our own country.

I'm not saying the US didn't torture people. I'm saying that they don't torture our own like the Chinese do.

You're very wrong my friend. I'm pretty sure you specifically would have no reason for the black vans to come a calling - but please don't be ignorant enough to suggest that the States isn't capable of it if you were important enough. As for the public making a fuss - you're damn right they would. Would it make any difference? Hell no. Eventually New Orleans is sinking again, or Iran pissed you off, or any other number of things that would eventually draw attention away. You can call me the typical America bashing Canadian but I'm not. I've been there many times, different states, know plenty of the people and love em. However, it's really stupid and naive to think that you're invincible to these sorts of things in America just because you're an American.

[Epinephrine]

^

Some people believe that China has progressed, the word progress can be taken two ways, mainly social and economic progression. Everyone agrees that China has progressed economically but the real argument is whether China has progressed socially.

Main argument for social progression: China today is better than it was thirty years ago, there's more individual freedoms.


Main argument against social progression: The country is still controlled by the Communist Party, there's no real 'democracy' and any rights and freedoms are given by the Communist Party. Any right and freedom given is still heavily monitored and controlled by the state.


I think what the main argument stems from the fact that Epinephrine feels I haven't given China enough credit for making 'significant changes'. I believe the country has made progress but I refuse to change my views that China is anything to be admired. Like I said before the country needs to change, not our opinions of it. Epinephrine's just more hopeful than I am that change will take place sooner than later and the growth in which that change is taking place.

My personal point is that I'm frankly tired of all the China bashing for the sake of China bashing. You're starting to sound like Christine Blatchford. The world is working so hard to find faults with China, that no matter how far they progress and no matter how far they go, people will still just go 'oh but they are a brutal dictatorship who could only run the Olympics thanks to slave labour'.

It's pretty sad when people actually believe that world-class facilities, stadiums and airports in Beijing could actually be built with 'slave labour' or 'oppressed people' instead of large construction corporations with much experience in construction who were hired to create such buildings. As well, I pretty much bet that if they found out that the Athens Olympics used computer generated fireworks no one could care less.

Furthermore I think it's unfair to the people of China, about how the games have been so demonized. You can be assured that there isn't much love for the communist party, but what there is love for is the nation as a whole. It's fair to say that up to 1 million people volunteered (as reported by NBC) to help out in these Olympics, and countless more celebrated in the Chinese part of the torch relay precisely because they are proud of their country and their own efforts in 'catching up' with the rest of the world. When the entire games gets belittled by those in the West and only gets associated with the communist party, it does nothing but to further alienate common Chinese citizens who will feel that they have no choice but to support the CCP because they feel that THEY are being attacked for all their hard work.

Here's an interesting discussion I saw about the Olympics:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...mentsalon/home

p.s. I mixed you up with Kolar Cops, my bad. He was the one that said we'd all be arrested. And my point about the internet is that they dont' block out the ENTIRE internet. There is no doubt censorship but it isn't all pervasive because it's impossible for them to do, the CCP isn't omnipotent.

[Capital Knockers]

Back to the topic here. I'll give you some credit Epi, since you're looking a bit lonely here. I still agree with Cops and Kolar, but the comments you made about the people are entirely true. I have respect for the people that took the time from their lives out of pride for their country to help with the games. Props to them, and everything they accomplished.

[Vykromond]

And my point about the internet is that they dont' block out the ENTIRE internet. There is no doubt censorship but it isn't all pervasive because it's impossible for them to do, the CCP isn't omnipotent.

Well, it can be pervasive without blocking out the entire internet. They do have 30,000 people hired to police the 'net, that's a pretty substantial force (source: US Consulate in Shanghai provided figures)

Why would they even want to block out the entirety of the internet when it can also be used for Party functions etc

[Cops]

My personal point is that I'm frankly tired of all the China bashing for the sake of China bashing. You're starting to sound like Christine Blatchford. The world is working so hard to find faults with China, that no matter how far they progress and no matter how far they go, people will still just go 'oh but they are a brutal dictatorship who could only run the Olympics thanks to slave labour'.

It's pretty sad when people actually believe that world-class facilities, stadiums and airports in Beijing could actually be built with 'slave labour' or 'oppressed people' instead of large construction corporations with much experience in construction who were hired to create such buildings. As well, I pretty much bet that if they found out that the Athens Olympics used computer generated fireworks no one could care less.

Furthermore I think it's unfair to the people of China, about how the games have been so demonized. You can be assured that there isn't much love for the communist party, but what there is love for is the nation as a whole. It's fair to say that up to 1 million people volunteered (as reported by NBC) to help out in these Olympics, and countless more celebrated in the Chinese part of the torch relay precisely because they are proud of their country and their own efforts in 'catching up' with the rest of the world. When the entire games gets belittled by those in the West and only gets associated with the communist party, it does nothing but to further alienate common Chinese citizens who will feel that they have no choice but to support the CCP because they feel that THEY are being attacked for all their hard work.

Here's an interesting discussion I saw about the Olympics:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...mentsalon/home

Look dude, I'm not bashing China for the sake of bashing China. There's legitimate concerns with where China is heading as well as their interaction with the rest of the world.

How can you hope for democracy to flourish in a society that has accepted a one party system for a long time, even you yourself admit that to change this would cause civil war, that's exactly why I don't see the prospect for a blooming democracy in China.

China's government structure is so fragile that any significant change would cause a huge meltdown in the country, any protest is falling on deaf ears when a country refuses to embrace true democracy. It goes back to the idea that The CPC has no obligation to fulfill any requests of its citizens because they will never (as I see it) lose power within that country.

I'll basically leave it at this because there's no point taking shots at what China does that is detrimental to our society, I believe whole heartily that the Chinese people are good people, they are no different than you an me. That said I believe they have openly accepted a one party system and hope to make change within that one party, and frankly China's individual rights and freedoms will never be secure until you see a serious opposition emerge within the country. Until China smartens the fuck up and works to better things at home and abroad then I won't be more hopeful than saying 'yeah they're better than they were thirty years ago'.

[Bioture]

First off, this was supposed to be a thread on how awesome the olympic ceremonies are, not a china-bashing thread for everyone to drop the bomb on how they feel about human rights.

Secondly, in NO way did I advocate anything chinese besides those ceremonies. It's sad that somehow because I liked china's olympic efforts, I get comments like these:

Biotures posts are a prime example of the new national pride that the Chinese have been instilled with. The Olympics were pivotal to this.
Nevermind that the PRC harvests organs from prisoners (some of which are arrested for following a certain religion), or that the pollution can block out the sun and has caused irreversible damage to China's environment and fauna... You are a superpower! woo... Unless you are a political dignitary this means fuckall to the average Chinese person.. Or unless you no longer live in China and are merily selling the quality of life of your countrymen for somekind of percieved social status... Its all bullshit but sadly not confined to China/Chinese. An American will also ignore the injustice and atrocities caused by its government, both foreign and domestic, and instead ignorantly grasp at some fabricated sense of patriotism.

I can't really even begin to comment on on how senseless and ignorant these statements are. And I can't really even say "oh well America did this..." because what would that achieve? If one prevailing western view of China is the fact that it's a one-party state, and that as long as this way, human rights will always be trampled on, then perhaps we need a quick history lesson on why a one-party system was instated in the first place.

Cops might be right that there is no serious opposition to state of the chinese gov't within China. But guess what? Western opposition IS the primary driving factor for the changes in the chinese gov't. But there are appropriate forms of opposition (world trade, etc), and then there are the "chinese gov't harvest prisoner's organs" barrage of ignorance.

Again, the olympic ceremonies were awesome. Hate all you want but that doesn't change .

[Heroin Bob]

The anyone who believes that China shouldn't host the games for the olympics is a dumtwat. That is truly the western world flexing its muscles at anything different from it. Communism shouldn't define a culture.

i got this far in this thread, sorry cops i usually like your debates but im tired and will read later.


also Paradise!: that is what communism does......

[Cops]

Cops might be right that there is no serious opposition to state of the chinese gov't within China. But guess what? Western opposition IS the primary driving factor for the changes in the chinese gov't. But there are appropriate forms of opposition (world trade, etc), and then there are the "chinese gov't harvest prisoner's organs" barrage of ignorance.

The world can't fix China's problems from thousands of miles away, even though we can cause reactions with our views and opinions. I think you're right that by holding them up to a standard they feel as though they need to do better as a whole, but my main argument is that the CPC (Communist Party of China) does not have to adhere to all of its citizens demands, it'd be the exact same way in Canada or America if we lost one of our main parties. When one party is the only option, the necessity for that party to fulfill its citizens obligations are in no way shape or from necessary to maintain power. Basically what I'm saying is that there's not a serious pressure on the CPC to adhere to all of its citizens demands, and to some extent I believe the CPC knows very well that if the country hasn't overthrown them yet then they never will.

I believe things will get better in China, but don't forget they can possibly get worse. Epinephrine might be proud of the fact that peoples individual freedoms are increased, and to some extent so am I, but you can't lose sight of the fact that these newly instilled rights and freedoms are not guaranteed. There's a lot to be said for not taking your freedom for granted. The west must be tough with China, to openly admit progress at this point would give the country the wrong idea, it'd also be selling the Chinese people short of real freedom and democracy. If the CPC can reinforce the fact that the west thinks 'good' things about them then they will, and the last thing the Chinese people need to believe is that this is the best they can and will ever have. There's a brighter day in China's future, I just think there's a mountain to cross where as you see it as a sand hill.

[Epinephrine]

Cops, the problem is all the moralizing. The funny part of it all is that people actually think that by showing outrage they are actually doing their part of effect change in China. Being outraged at the Olympics, protesting the torch relay, calling it the 'Genocide Olympics', and saying that 'anyone could have hosted it this well it wasn't anything special' when it was so blatantly obvious that it was done EXTREMELY well just reeks as nothing more than getting in as many words against the Chinese as possible.

China is slowly changing from within, and all the outrage and belittling 'moral superiority' in the world isn't going to change anything, except further alienate the Chinese and strengthen nationalism within China and thus strengthen the CPC.

The real changes that may come from the west are the greater application of technology (i.e. the 500+ million in China who now have cell phones, the 200+ million internet users, of which they cannot all be monitored and thus are more free than ever to express their views and organize protest), the cultural transfers from visitors to China and Chinese visiting/studying/working in other countries, and the power of good journalism about China itself which highlights events that the CPC would try and cover up that the people in China actually care about.

China is changing from the inside, with record numbers of protests every year, increasing amounts of freedom demanded by the people themselves, increased amount of outrage and oversight demanded by increasing wealthy citizens who won't stand for the old ways anymore, and self-interested home owners (you couldn't own property until very recently), business owners and stockholders who want to protect their own investments. This is the pressure, and the communist party is reacting the only way it can which is to crack down. But rest assured, the genie has been let out of the bottle, and considering there are actually a lot of actual sensible people out there even in China it will get better and better yet.

All the outrage and belittling of China, it's Olympics and it's accomplishments in the world aren't going to solve anything, and really just reeks of people being sore losers that China is doing so well, as it always runs along the lines of 'yah well who cares if they are growing at 10% GDP every year and have better built cities with vastly newer infrastructure than us when our own cities are slowly crumbling, they are all living in the most brutal dictatorship ever and the people there are so oppressed they are too ignorant to know the difference, what poor stupid people!'. That is the tone that comes off, and that is the tone which is picked up within China itself which doesn't help anyone in the end.


Look I'm no fan of the CPC, but there are certain approaches which are best taken. In this regard, I actually finally agree with someone George Bush has done. By attending the opening ceremonies he has ensured that America has showed respect to the Chinese leadership and the Chinese people, and ensured that America's word will carry more of a weight to those people. By skipping altogether, Harper has ensured that Canada will be increasingly forgotten by China as it's own influence becomes less and less with each increasing snub. This has nothing to do with communists or not, and more in line with Asian culture, that you should always show respect, even to those you don't agree with.

[DankNuggets]

All the outrage and belittling of China, it's Olympics and it's accomplishments in the world aren't going to solve anything, and really just reeks of people being sore losers that China is doing so well, as it always runs along the lines of 'yah well who cares if they are growing at 10% GDP every year and have better built cities with vastly newer infrastructure than us when our own cities are slowly crumbling, they are all living in the most brutal dictatorship ever and the people there are so oppressed they are too ignorant to know the difference, what poor stupid people!'. That is the tone that comes off, and that is the tone which is picked up within China itself which doesn't help anyone in the end.

Hey, if that's how it sounds to you, there's not much we can do. Every single person in this thread who has posted not in support of the CPC has made it very clear that they do have a lot of respect for the Chinese people. They have also made it clear that they do recognize the progress that China has made, but they still see it as behind other nations.

We know that one of the oldest civilizations, with the largest number of people, is also going to be one of the hardest to change.

I don't understand the sore losers part... what did we lose?

And I don't think that's the tone that the Chinese are picking up. Maybe it's changed in the past couple months, but a friend of mine who did a student exchange there said that, in general, the Chinese people were very welcoming of him, and also very interested in him. They had respect and even admiration for Americans. It's only one person, but it's the only person I know who's been there and back who's not Chinese.

Once agian, no one's bashing the Chinese, they're bashing their government and it's policies. I wish non-Americans could take a stance like this when they put every mistake Bush ever made on our backs.

[genocidal]

lol relly who gives a fuk the only people i repsct less than chinese are gays and negros ROFL women r fuckin cunt whorres too