Expelled - The Movie

[Exalt]

Ever hear of the Neanderthal? Read up on them if you wish: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal

Neanderthals are between the other great apes and humans on the evolutionary tree. Chimps are between Gorillas and humans. Gorillas and chimps are between humans and Orangutans, etc.

neanderthal's were proved to be a big hoax by leading scientists years ago

the neaderthal man's skull was just an apes skull, not a "half man half ape"

[TagMor]

I remember researching Creationism in college, and although I don't recall the name of the source atm (Some Australian Creationist) some of the stuff that he was preaching was absolutely incredible to me.

"The earth is between 10,000 and 6,000 years old"
Radioactive clocks anyone? Carbon Dating? no?

"In the past, people lived to be 1000years old, god smites the sinners of today which is why humans only live to be around 80."
Riiiight, thats why our expected lifetime has increased since the dark ages, they mustve been massive sinners back then, and were only "moderate" sinners.

"according to the bible, there is no evidence of rain before Noah, which explans why the world has deserts"...
Yeah, weather is only a 4000year old phenomenon... RIIIIIIIIGHT. Erosion is just an elaborate hoax by our great creator...

"I have never seen any form of evolution, therefore there is no evidence to support Darwinism, thus it is false".
Yes, evolution happens in the paltry 50ish years the guy has been alive.

If you need evidence on evolution, just look at how the reptilian jaw has developed into the mammonian jaw, you can clearly see the movement of the uppermost jaw bones into the inner ear of "modern" mammals over hunderds of thousands of years.

"God has created everything as it is now, nothing has evolved".
Yes, right, DNA chains don't exist, and we haven't "proven" that we are all interlinked by some way, let alone our evolution from more basic ape like forms.

"god is perfect, and has created everything to be the best that it can be"
Yes, we are "perfect", we have something called an Appendix, which is left over from a time when we may have had some use for it, we have serious deficiencies in our eyesight, blindspot anyone? and we aren't the only species with deficiencies. Either your "god" is incapable of creating something "perfect", or you are gonna tell me he has a sense of humor.... or you could accept the fact that we have evolved.

This is a bit OT, but one way I like to put things into perspective are as follows:
Go outside and grab a handful of dirt, that handful of dirt contains around 4 billion different bacteria and other "living" organisms, or about 4x the population of earth.
Now consider how large our planet is, and consider how insignificant we are as humans.
Add to this the rest of the universe.
We are an insignificant spec when it comes to life in the universe, yet somehow we think we are special and created by some omnipotent creator sitting on a cloud and dictating our place in the after life.... :turned:

OK..
So you read some abstract book about creationism, then try and argue the authors theories as if it has any relevance to the beliefs of those participating in this thread?
You even start referring to the reader as "You", as if the author of the book is reading it, or creationists share some collective conscious and are incapable of independent thought??
.. But then maybe your intellect has evolved beyond my comprehension?

[Kolar]

neanderthal's were proved to be a big hoax by leading scientists years ago

the neaderthal man's skull was just an apes skull, not a "half man half ape"

Piltdown man "Eoanthropus dawsoni" was proven to be a hoax and is unrelated to the Neanderthals. There are dozens if not hundreds of specimens of Neanderthals out there and their genome is being sequenced. Louis stated this above that the lack of transitional fossils is due to the unique circumstances required for remains to become fossilized. Therefore we won't in every single case see a direct line of changes or mutations. But as we find more evidence and new technology that gap can be filled in.

[Zeebu]

i found the movie itself slightly annoying.

i agree with the general idea of the movie - a person who mentions ID as a way to describe how some unexplained things MIGHT have happened shouldnt be persecuted and given the boot. i said mention though, not teach with 100% confidence.

the crowd that stands behind creationism and to a certain extent ID and that line of thinking, in my opinion, constantly undermine their own credibility.

you cant keep jumping from one unexplained thing to another and say that "God did it" each time. If you throw your weight 100% behind something just because 'God said so' and are then later proved incorrect by science, it hurts your credibility.

i guess my beef with it all is pretty simple. science can only explain so much right now. we can only gather so much data and make our conclusions from it. well, the a person that throws their hat only on the physical data that is measured and known, when they hit that wall, its just speculation and mostly the general consensus is "we dont know yet."

when someone with a little more religion motivation hits that same wall, instead of saying that "we dont know yet" some try to explain it away through divine/omniscient means. if that idea is then endorsed by a certain religion and then later proved wrong... pfffft. what does that say about you?


man i ramble

[kthx]

Well Zeebu, here is my problem. When you are trying to use science which can't explain so many things yet, and trying to disprove religion and/or god with a theory that is constantly changing you can see why most religious people are skeptical. If Science could explain everything and actually have the proof of the fact that earth was created by a big bang, or whatever random theory they currently have about the creation of the planet then they might win over some religious people.

But that isn't the way it works, once every 5-10 years a new theory comes out that sounds good, and a bunch of scientists come together to tell everyone that this is how the world came to be, this is how the human race came to be, this is why X things happen. Science really has no more credibility than Christianity, especially since so many things that were written in the Bible have been proven to be true. Finding the clothing Jesus was clothed in when he died exactly where The Bible said it would be for instance.

When it comes down to it, multiple things in The Bible have been proven true, and so many theories in the scientific are constantly changing and being replaced by new ones, I think I will stick by what has been true since its foundation and put my trust in god, over man.

[Zeebu]

yeah, i know science is constantly proven wrong. the only reason i dont mind is that its not endorsed by any sort of "divine presence"

if its wrong, that just means that data has been found and collected to disprove it.

if something that has been endorsed by a certain religion is found to be incorrect though scientific data, that only hurts religion.



i guess im just a fan of saying "i dont know yet". i am just as likely to believe that there was some sort of intilligent designer as to believe there was a big bang (or both).

i dont mind being wrong. but, i dont like it when God could be wrong... does that make any sense?

I guess what i mean is God is never wrong. Any time that something that has been endorsed by a religion is found to be wrong, it pisses me off.

[kthx]

I see what your saying, I don't know what to believe either. But I feel better putting my trust in God than I do in Science.

[Squeezer]

Again back to me being taught in school dinosaurs were killed off by an asteroid. I was taught something...sure wasnt scientific fact

Yeah, but asteroids have since been proven to exist.

So they were wrong, but not making shit up. Those scientists may have misread the evidence (though I'm not sure the asteroid theory has actually been fully disproved), but they were seeking an answer based on the evidence they saw.

Science isn't perfect, religion claims to be.

[Squeezer]

However, a belief in God makes some people act differently. The fear of doing wrong and going to hell is a powerful motivator to do what is right whereas an atheist is not bound by such things.

Sorry for the DP, but what proof do you have to substantiate this? Hell, why even make this claim?

Are you trying to insinuate that atheists have no moral code, because that's not true. Morality did not and does not necessarily come to modern people from Christianity. While many of us were brought up with Christian values, the same cannot be said elsewhere. Does that mean that faiths without the idea of hell are more deviant? What are you trying to get at?

And before you start, I'm not an atheist or a theist really. I don't know if there's a higher being. Part of me hopes so, and part of me really doubts so, but I'd like to believe there's some kind of overlying structure to the madness. With that being said, I can say that I don't make moral decisions based on a fear of retribution. I do them because it makes me feel comfortable. It lets me sleep at night and usually proves most beneficial toward getting what I need.

After school today, I'll be volunteering at the soup kitchen a couple of blocks away from my house. Because of my job as a reporter, I've met and come to get involved in a variety of different Non-Profits. I tell you this not to brag or flaunt my service. I've actually been volunteering for a while now and even considered making a thread about it, but decided to keep it private instead, because to me it's about the opposite of what you said. I volunteer not because I'm afraid of the fate the awaits me in the afterlife, but because I'm afraid of the fate I'd have to face now, knowing that I live so well, while others down the road have no home, no food and command no respect. I've done nothing to deserve the life I've been given, so instead I give back.

Someday I hope I can look back and appreciate this moment more than I do now. That's my faith. What's wrong with that?

[kthx]

Nothing, but most laws and morals come from religion in some sense. Even if it isn't Christianity every culture has either a deity or a legendary person who has passed down edicts on how people should behave. Whether you worship Jesus or Buddha that is true. Even if you don't believe in god, and never have, even if your parents didn't believe in god, somewhere in a past generation in your family, someone did have faith in a higher being.Chances are they passed their morals to and ideals down the line to give you some sense of morality. I don't think that can really be argued against.

Also, I love how people bring up what a few Creationists believe and use that to disavow what every Christian believes. It would be just as easy to me to point out that Tone is a "scientist" in a sense and that his obviously retarded views on aliens is the reason why I don't believe science is correct about anything. Everyone has their own views and beliefs about god, so you can't quote a few views that have been expressed to disprove peoples beliefs in god.

[Squeezer]

Nothing, but most laws and morals come from religion in some sense. Even if it isn't Christianity every culture has either a deity or a legendary person who has passed down edicts on how people should behave. Whether you worship Jesus or Buddha that is true. Even if you don't believe in god, and never have, even if your parents didn't believe in god, somewhere in a past generation in your family, someone did have faith in a higher being.Chances are they passed their morals to and ideals down the line to give you some sense of morality. I don't think that can really be argued against.

Also, I love how people bring up what a few Creationists believe and use that to disavow what every Christian believes. It would be just as easy to me to point out that Tone is a "scientist" in a sense and that his obviously retarded views on aliens is the reason why I don't believe science is correct about anything. Everyone has their own views and beliefs about god, so you can't quote a few views that have been expressed to disprove peoples beliefs in god.

I'm not saying that morality wasn't handed down to us and formed like clay over the generations it was passed down. Of course it was. A lot of the information religion gives regarding life can lead to a healthy and social lifestyle. I don't think anyone in this thread will deny that Christ had some zingers about the human condition, whether he was divine or not.

But in today's modern world where people exist outside the constraints of religion (or certainly less than in the past), politics and even capital, morality can be derived from anywhere. Just as creationists have different views on God, non-believers have different views on right and wrong. Hence why morality is subjective.

So while I understand what you're saying about Western society being largely formed using the teachings of Christ, I'm saying that there are tons of people with moral codes out there that are unaware, or uncaring of the religion they may have got it from. I don't see divinity in that, though you may. I only see people acting like people.

[kthx]

But then that means that people act like people because of religion.

[Squeezer]

But then that means that people act like people because of religion.

kind of. That's a chicken and egg question really.

What did the Jews do before God contacted Abraham, or sent his commandments through Moses? They had to behave some way.

I would also argue that the law has a large effect (certainly more than eternal damnation) on modern people's actions. The law may have come from Religion, but that's not why we enforce it.

[kthx]

kind of. That's a chicken and egg question really.

What did the Jews do before God contacted Abraham, or sent his commandments through Moses? They had to behave some way.

I would also argue that the law has a large effect (certainly more than eternal damnation) on modern people's actions. The law may have come from Religion, but that's not why we enforce it.

You do something wrong and you go to jail, if you wrong in life and you go to hell. I would agree with you, but even Jail takes its whole concept from religion as far as punishing what we consider evil by placing them somewhere that isn't where they want to be to make them suffer and repent. But anyways we could go on forever about how religion is pretty much the basis for the penal system so I won't argue that point anymore. Anyways, there has ALWAYS been a deity whether you believe in cavemen who I am sure thought the sun was some sort of god, to the present day where there are many different religions who all have similar beliefs along the lines of the Judao-Christian religion to define morality towards your common man. So whether you believe that God was really here at the first dawn of man with Adam and Eve and what became of the people during the flood with only the righteous being spared, or whether you believe that if you didn't revere the sun as a god you would be burned forever there has always been some code of conduct based on religion.

[paradise!]

That's the whole point of intelligent design - it's not "wrong" or "right." You either believe there is an "intelligent designer" or you don't. That's why it has nothing to do with science. That's why scientists think it's retarded.

LOL?