WTF Japan? Epic thread of problems

[Pandagirl!]

Here's what I meant by the fact that they were a joke. First, you get so many chances to pass that it almost impossible not to pass. You get 7 chances in total, plus optional testings during the summer if you're really worried about passing. Second, the score needed to pass each section is a 40%. I mean really, even if you just guess it's not that hard to get a 40%. Some of the questions were ridiculously easy as well - there were questions on the math section where you had to add a few decimals. And you had a calculator, so as long as you know how to operate a calculator you're good to go.

Also, as far as I know, people who are mentally handicapped are exempt from taking the test. I can't speak with certainty though. In my graduating class, there wasn't a single person who didn't pass the test by their senior year.

[Hakaku]

Come on.

You didn't know we too were highly subjected to and evaluated based on standardized testing?

You have hear of the SAT right? That thing you used to have to get over 1000 on, or be a super duper dunkmaster to get into college?

In Japan, we do the SAT as well as all the others.


Edit: Unless of course you're in a ghetto school, then you probably won't be expected to do much testings as you're already considered a hopeless failure in society.

[Liquid Blue]

wait well what defines a ghetto school in japan?

[Hakaku]

wait well what defines a ghetto school in japan?

Ghetto schools in Japan are pretty much the worst off schools around there. It's where teachers dread to teach for various reasons, so they pass their students just to get rid of them. The school itself, located near the city ghetto (i.e. "a section of a city, esp. a thickly populated slum area, inhabited predominantly by members of an ethnic or other minority group, often as a result of social or economic restrictions, pressures, or hardships."), will be an old run-down building that's in the process of falling apart (literally, the walls are collapsing), with almost no monetary support from the government (since japanese have this way of hiding blemishes rather than fixing them), and probably most of the income that does come, will be misplaced and misused. Students themselves are the ones who couldn't be put in any other school, as they're both poor and considered less educated (and/or simply don't care to try to learn). They dress way skankier than the average, speak in a low social register, control the classroom, and waste their time and money skipping, buying cigarettes, pot, and having sex. And there's no stigma to any of it.

[DankNuggets]

The Japanese education system is similar to many other East Asian education systems. Basically, there are standardized tests for everything.

As I understand, they have exams at the end of primary school which determine what middle school they get into. Then there's exams to determine which high school you get into. And then if you want to go to university, each university has a special exam you have to write to get into it. Because of all these exams, especially the university exam, a lot of people end up going to 'cram school', basically after school lessons in an attempt to learn extra material to pass these exams.

I believe there are specific tests for each school you have to specially write, although there may ALSO be some super standardized super-test which is for everyone. Either way, these tests also have rankings so you know exactly how you ranked compared to everyone else.

As I understand, schools also may individually rank students, and post this information publicly after each semester as well.

So basically, there's a lot of stupid hurdles to pass through to get anywhere in life and you're constantly ranked and compared to your peers. I could imagine that to be a bit stressful for all but the smartest students.

The immense pressure for these university exams is not to be underestimated. I know there is a similar system in Hong Kong. Even now, my parents still have nightmares of waking up late for the exam, or showing up for that exam and not knowing the answers. It's one of those things that really drives people crazy.

Yeah i had a friend who went to HS in s. korea. he basically said that you need to have a career path by middle school, since you have to pick a "type" of HS to go to, and hope you get in.

and yeah, he pretty much backed-up the idea that if you don't go to one of those great schools, then you're doomed to a lower class life.

He was ecstatic to come to school in the US, and not have the constant pressure (though ironically, he put it on himself). He also dressed in a lot of ecko clothes and listened to a lot of rap, so maybe he's not your stereotypical "do-gooder" asian. and for all the work he put in, he probably wasn't more than 1 yr ahead of the AAP/AP/Honors/IB students, but still light years ahead of the tech-prep, aka-retard class, students.

[Vykromond]

By the way, Finnish sounds like that Elvish language in Lord of the Rings movies to me and my friends.

this is because tolkien patterned many of the linguistic features of the elvish languages on finnish

decent book about hikikomori, collapse of japanese civil society, etc, comes mildly vykromond recommended http://www.shuttingoutthesun.com/

[Epinephrine]

Come on.

You didn't know we too were highly subjected to and evaluated based on standardized testing?

You have hear of the SAT right? That thing you used to have to get over 1000 on, or be a super duper dunkmaster to get into college?

In my state there is a standard test issued in 1st, 4th, 7th and 11th grade, called the WASL (WA= Washington Standard Learning test). Two years ago an amendment was passed by the state that declared every public school student had to pass the WASL before graduating from high school. You get two chances to do that. If you fuck up your two chances, too bad. No HS diploma in the state of Washington.

Kind of fucked up if you ask me. That's part of the reason I went to private school. I didn't have to worry about touching that crap.

edit: and lets not even get into how these tests affect school funding.

The American system is very different.

Yes you have these tests you have to take, but while they may be tests that you need to pass to pass high school, you just need to PASS them. This means that for the most part, they are made so that any generally not really dumb or really lazy person could pass it without TOO much effort.

As for the SAT, I took it myself and the SATIIs back when I was in high school because I was thinking of applying for an American university, but yet again it's different.

First of all, if you fail any of those high school tests in America, you can retake them. Secondly, you are just passing them. We have similar type tests that started in Ontario (after I graduated haha). In Asian countries, these tests actually DETERMINE what nursery/primary/middle/high school you go to. I actually had to pass a bunch of tests before I could go to an elite NURSERY SCHOOL in Hong Kong when I was 2.

What this also means is that if your friends don't get a certain mark... well you'll probably never see them again in school. This also means, that it's a constant competition from DAY 1 to get into better and better schools. Couple this with the fact that education is so much more important in the Asian psyche, there is enormous pressure from parents to succeed. In North America, there is pressure for things like extracurriculars, volunteering or sports, but in Asian countries, all of that pressure is just put into academics and academics only unless you're going to some special sports school.

Secondly, the structure of society for many centuries dictates that the better university you go to, the better you will be seen by society, FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. While people might struggle for an Ivy league education in North America, lots of people get by quite well without it and even succeed quite well in life. You don't NEED super high SAT scores, because you can go to State university and still get good jobs if you work hard. It's drastically harder in Asian countries to do so, because your rank matters so much more from day 1 and you are judged by that so much harder.

Finally, professional programs in Japan like in many other places in the world start after high school. In North America, you don't go into law school or medical school until doing some undergrad first, and since admissions are blind to what school you go to, there really isn't much difference where you go for undergrad as long as you do well on your LSAT/MCAT which you can write however many times you want.

In Japan (like many other places as mentioned), because you start after high school, you have that ONE TEST which if you fail, you will never be a doctor or a lawyer. You will never be a lot of things, because you didn't jump through that one hoop when you were 17/18.

One final thing is, in North America, a lot of the pressures of succeeding further in life are self-inflicted. A lot of people I know in medicine or law did take those Kaplan review courses for LSAT/MCAT and so on, but they did it for their own interest because they themselves want to succeed. In Asian societies, pressure is usually given from parents and family, where parents will constantly pressure from day 1 for their kids to succeed beyond everything. Unless you live in such a family, it is very hard to understand, and certainly the typical North American person probably wouldn't truly understand. When you are pressured beyond belief to do something you probably don't think you can do or even want to do but you must do anyway, and so does everyone else, and then you have to compete really hard because you only have that ONE chance to 'make it', it's a lot of pressure and I can see why people would get really depressed over it, especially if they don't end up succeeding.

I'd say if you were super smart like Pandagirl over there, it probably wouldn't matter so much anyway, because you could get somewhere in life with just your smarts, but for everyone else it sucks ass.


Of course I'm just saying in general, I guess Hakaku knows a lot more than I would.

[Exalt]

well... college in USA is pretty simple to get into, and undergraduate schools do not matter whatsoever... getting your bachelors doesn't matter where you go.. what matters is your graduate school if you choose to go further in education

I'll put it this way... In high school all I did was party NONSTOP. I probably partied harder in high school than most people do their entire time in college. I smoked weed before class, I did drugs, I drank a lot, and I overall did not care at all.

We would get homework in class and I would never ever do any of it. The only reason I passed any of my classes were because I would Ace all of my tests and get an A+ on every final without studying or really paying attention. I would usually end up with a D in the class, with the teachers royally pissed that I could somehow pass all their tests and finals with As without trying.

My senior year I took the SAT test hungover from the night before and without a calculator. This was back when you could score only a maximum of 1600. I scored somewhere around 1380. Immediately I had colleges contact me from all over the place. They generally would overlook my high school grades as a joke and focus mainly on the SAT score. When I did go to college, I went to Indiana University since I knew it was a party school. I had to take a reading test at admissions, since my grades were bad. It should have taken an hour or so. I did it in 10 minutes while missing nothing.

Admissions actually laughed when it was all said and done. They cleped me out of almost all math and english 101-102 courses from the get go. I don't think I ever have gotten below a B in any class since. When I apply to a graduate school I can go pretty much anywhere I want to based on SAT and college GPA. Simple as that....

Not to make this sound like I'm talking about myself nonstop, but it was to prove a point. In USA its all about the ACT or SAT test too, GPA means nothing whatsoever. It only matters if you want to get a bachelors at an IVY league school which is worthless anyway, and costs far more than getting one at a state school. Graduate programs are really the only things that matter anyway. If you are ONLY going for a bachelors, a really expensive school is stupid to even consider. Jobs don't give a shit where you go with only a 2-4 year degree, its all about experience in the workforce.

[Izor]

And this is where the not knowing about other countries comes into play, Epi. You dont even know about how we are ranked as students down in America, and our cultures are much more similar than that of Japan. If you cant even know basic things about your neighbor, how can you know it about someone on the other side of the globe? I'm 100% positive you've come into contact with more Americans than you have Japanese. Also, the SAT (not SAT II's) isnt a test that you 'pass or fail.' It is a test that evaluates your aptitude in certain areas and is used, among other things, to compare you to your peers. I'm getting sick and tired of you acting as though Americans arent compared with their peers. What do you think the purpose of a resume is? Why do you think people are interviewed for jobs? These are all tools people can use to separate themselves from their competition.

Perhaps Japan is stricter in this aspect and that I dont doubt, but America has its own social stressors as well like being accepted by your peers and bullying that I wouldnt think would be as big of an issue in Japan. There are plenty of things that can lead to suicide, so you should know that you cant just blame their culture for all of it. Our culture is very socially fucked up as well and we dont have such a high suicide rate.

I hope what you can take away from this thread is that you arent an expert on everything Epi. You are using your own personal interpretation of Japanese culture and treating it as fact, even though the numbers and common sense don't back you up. Really, look at some of your points in this conversation so far.

People are just pressured to stay at work, unpaid.

This is just simply speculation. The working hours were first set straight by me linking wikipedia's chart, and the OP by LB saying that employers were sending their workers home early to procreate. So they're forcing people to go home early and have kids while working 5 hours overtime a day!?

There's so much social pressure to conform in that country that most people just can't go against it. You'll see this from little things like how people always line up for anything and never bud in line, or like how everyone wears that identical suit to work. Furthermore, even if they didn't fire you, they could lower your salary, give you increasingly crappy duties, make your work life a living hell, or make sure you never get promoted again. And then if you didn't do any of these things, they'd have grounds to fire you. All reasons as to why you would do stuff like this if you wanted to keep working there.

I'm going to do what I do best and connect this to something I'm familiar with. I'm expected to wear my uniform a certain way, to have my room clean, and to act in certain ways that the military has laid out. If I dont do that, my boss can give me increasingly crappy duties, make my life a living hell, lower my salary (article 15), or make sure I never get promoted again (bad EPR). If I didnt change my behavior to conform to the standards he'd have grounds to get me discharged. I must be horribly oppressed by society!

[Zerzera]

Yes, good point comparing every day life in Japan with the army. Not everyone in Japan is a tool though. If you are an intelligent person with a goal in life you really don't want your life to be controlled by some Sergeant -just because his parents were rich-.

[Izor]

Yes, good point comparing every day life in Japan with the army. Not everyone in Japan is a tool though. If you are an intelligent person with a goal in life you really don't want your life to be controlled by some Sergeant -just because his parents were rich-.

Well I compared it to that because thats not every day life in Japan, thats every day life on this planet.

[Exalt]

Yes, good point comparing every day life in Japan with the army. Not everyone in Japan is a tool though. If you are an intelligent person with a goal in life you really don't want your life to be controlled by some Sergeant -just because his parents were rich-.

So you are saying that all military are tools because they sometimes have bosses that are Sergeants who got there only because his parents were rich? Are you serious?

Welcome to the planet earth retard. Do you think all the presidents of every country, all the various kings and queens, all of the dictators and rulers... The first one might not have been rich the but second one for damn sure was and had rich parents who got them their positions. Who the fuck do you think George Bush was? A lowly peasant that worked his way up into the ranks of president because he was intelligent? Shut the fuck up and don't call people tools just because they have a boss who got there from having rich parents, because if that's the case then the entire world is for any leader in their respective country.

[Zerzera]

The people in this thread can't, according to you, judge Japan because they live somewhere else, yet you make a bold generalization about life everywhere on this planet?

And your generalization is incorrect. It might be that you grew up in a conservative community and crave for a strict hierarchy, but that's not how it is in every community.
In my surrounding there is no pressure from peers when it comes to school or a career. No one tells you what to do, and I wouldn't want it any other way. In my social surrounding (of educated people) there aren't really superiors, even your boss is just someone you work for/with. Companies actually come to college for projects and try to recruit you for their company. And though you told me not to judge other countries, I think it's much the same in the United States. But I guess you wouldn't know either.

The Dutch school system discriminates on intelligence though. At the age of 12 students are grouped based on it. So when you are a smart liberal you don't really live with dumb conservatives. As a matter of act I don't know any conservatives really, I used to work with some when I had a side-job, but even they were liberal compared to your views.

I can't deny that everything isn't perfect. At the moment the economy has slowed down, (You know which person I blame for that?) and that feeds conservatism. It's reflected in the popularity of the Partij van de Vrijheid (Party of the Freedom), which according to the polls would be the second largest party had we elections today. This party is populist and conservative, their views are close to those of Bush.
My guess is that it will all blow over when the economy gets back on track, it happened in the 90s too.

And as side note I want to address to you that you often confuse socialism with liberalism. There's a world of difference. In my opinion Obama is socialist and I wouldn't want him as a president. But it's what I said when Bush was president; Every country gets the leader it deserves.

[Epinephrine]

Also, the SAT (not SAT II's) isnt a test that you 'pass or fail.' It is a test that evaluates your aptitude in certain areas and is used, among other things, to compare you to your peers.

Yes, if you read my post, I said I took the SATs. Obviously there's rankings, but there isn't the same pressures from parents to succeed. There just isn't, and there's no way you will ever understand unless you're one of the top 5% in America whose parents pushed you really, really hard. Considering you ended up in the military, I highly doubt that.

Perhaps Japan is stricter in this aspect and that I dont doubt, but America has its own social stressors as well like being accepted by your peers and bullying that I wouldnt think would be as big of an issue in Japan.

If you actually read LB's article it said the kid in the kitchen was bullied for years. SOURCE: LB's article

There are plenty of things that can lead to suicide, so you should know that you cant just blame their culture for all of it. Our culture is very socially fucked up as well and we dont have such a high suicide rate.

Yes there are plenty of things that lead to suicide. There's also plenty of reasons why someone would shut themselves inside a room for years. Why is it that Japan has the most of these people? It can't be the water. Obviously there's something socially different about it. Your entire rant is thus, irrelevant.

I hope what you can take away from this thread is that you arent an expert on everything Epi. You are using your own personal interpretation of Japanese culture and treating it as fact, even though the numbers and common sense don't back you up.

I've stated numerous times that I'm not Japanese, and thus I'm inferencing from my own knowledge. I would say that I know more about that country than most people here aside from Displaced or Hakaku. Still as I keep saying in my posts, it's just my own ideas. Perhaps you should also stop posting in every thread that you encounter that isn't about your specific part of America or the American military and stop pretending that you know anything either?

This is just simply speculation. The working hours were first set straight by me linking wikipedia's chart, and the OP by LB saying that employers were sending their workers home early to procreate. So they're forcing people to go home early and have kids while working 5 hours overtime a day!?

Don't you see the inherent contradiction in your head? People work too much, that's why they are send home early! If they didn't work that hard, why would they have to be sent home early?

I'm going to do what I do best and connect this to something I'm familiar with. I'm expected to wear my uniform a certain way, to have my room clean, and to act in certain ways that the military has laid out. If I dont do that, my boss can give me increasingly crappy duties, make my life a living hell, lower my salary (article 15), or make sure I never get promoted again (bad EPR). If I didnt change my behavior to conform to the standards he'd have grounds to get me discharged. I must be horribly oppressed by society!

Yes you have to act in certain ways that the military has laid out. If your superiors start breaking those rules (i.e. hazing you) that could be grounds for punishment of senior staff. Regardless, the military is nothing like the rest of the world, which is why so few people actually join the military because it sort of sucks.

[DankNuggets]

unless you're rich, high school GPA's matter a lot.

I was #4 in my graduating class, which was 2 spots ahead of teh cutoff for a much larger scholarship.

It's based on three things: SAT scores, GPAs, and class ranking (if you went to a dumb school).

They give out scholarships based on ranking. If you have a D average, you won't get anything from the state (could always get private) regardless of your SAT scores. However, if you had high SATs (and 1380 is high enough- the cutoff was 1300 i think) AND a B or A average, then you're set.

If you're in the top 5 of your class, make a 1480, and have a 4.9 GPA in HS, they give you a lot of money

If you're #25 in your class, make a 1400, and only have a 3.8 GPA, then you get a lot less (my roommate's situation). Then again, we both got the same private scholarships, so we were good. He also joined ROTC for a year and got money for that.

Damn, now that I look back I had virtually all the scholarships you can get w/o writing 50 essays and having relatives on boards somewhere. And I STILL had to take out student loans. Fucked up, that's what that was.