Going Dutch

[kthx]

I think that the best doctors deserve to get paid more money compared to a mediocre doctor. Considering that happens in America still and we have among the best doctors on the planet I dont think it is too far off.

[Mattey]

You think the truly talented/great doctors get into the field primarily because of money?

[kthx]

Well free market based Health Care has also made America one of the leading countries to visit when you are sick also, the fact that a great doctor makes more money than a mediocre doctor means that you end up getting better treatment also. There is an old saying in Russia that is something along the lines of "You pretend to pay us so we pretend to heal you", and I think that pretty well sums up the way a lot of doctors who have to live in that system feel.

[Vykromond]

dutch ovens own

[TagMor]

lol @ butthurt americans.


Privatisation leads to greed and corruption. Look at the situation of U.S health insurance, it is a joke. Another example would be liability auto insurance.
Americans pay taxes for emergency services, waste management, road maintenance, etc. And the result is efficient and public-orientated service. They have privatised healthcare/education and the results are severily broken systems that are profit-orientated and have a reduced capability of serving the citizens.
Despite Kthx's dramatic cries of communism and social oppression, most western countries have a system of Socialism that merily safeguards the people from corruption and manipulation of these core social services.

[Galleleo]

I don't know if you are right about the car thing Epi. In 2007 we had 7.2 million registered private cars, so that is excluding all of the trucks and other business vehicles. On a country with a population of 16 million. That is a hell of a lot (basically the Netherlands is one big traffic jam during rush hours and it is only getting worse). Also, the prices of cars in the Netherlands tend to be higher than here in the US, because as far as I understand it, there is no standard that cars in the US have to abide to, but there are in the Netherlands (at least that is what I heard from people owning cars here).

Also, I am pretty sure our taxes on the car are a lot higher and I think our insurance might be, but on the other hand that all depends on which one you pick so I am not 100% sure on that. I do know that gas is like 3x as expensive. So overall, in comparison I don't know if we actually spend less on cars than Americans.

And I am not trying to say that any system is more legitimate than the other, obviously I favour the Dutch system, but I probably would favour the American one if I grew up here. What the author does note though, in these current times the European system seems to be more stable in an Economic downturn. Which I could understand if you would look at spending for instance, if you lose your job in America there is a bigger chance you lose your house, insurance, etc. and your spending goes way down. In the Netherlands you still have the social system in place, meaning that you can keep your house (as long as it doesn't take you years and years to get a new job, otherwise you might need to step down, as in a cheaper place) and insurance, you also keep on getting the money and although spending would still drop, I would expect it to not drop as much in comparison.

[Epinephrine]

It's all a matter of optics. The article is absolutely correct when it says that in the end, the tax burden is around the same once you add in all fees and incidentals. Furthermore, there's unseen fees like for instance Americans lose a large percentage of their income for healthcare, a percentage that everyone else pays with taxes.

Furthermore, there's intrinsic differences in the geography and makeup of America and the Netherlands that can't be ignored.

The Netherlands is an extremely densely populated country (few places in the world are as densely populated) and as such by default spends a LOT less money on infrastructure than the USA even if you take into the account of all their dams. Think of all the highways in the middle of nowhere in the USA and how much that must cost to maintain (remember Europe has many more people than the USA in a far smaller area).

Secondly in terms of similar expenditures, they spend a hell of a lot less money on their military, and as a percentage a lot less on healthcare as everyone else does relative to the USA.

Thirdly, due to the makeup of the country, even individual priorities will be different. Americans may have more money, but they likely spend much more money on transportation than the Dutch. It's impossible to get around in most places in North America without a car, but pretty easy to get around the Netherlands without one. As such, the car is actually not that important (as in most other super dense places like in Asia) and all that 'extra' money that Americans have to spend on buying/maintaining/gassing up/paying insurance on their cars is money that can be used for other priorities.

For sure, overall the Dutch do pay more taxes in the end, but it's also about priorities in life. Since the Dutch do have inherent efficient benefits in being in a small densely populated country, and since they CHOOSE not to spend so much on their military or nearly as much on healthcare, and since many of them don't NEED cars, all those resources are redirected.

They believe in collective good. Americans believe in individual good. Which is actually better? Hard to say, it's two different systems, and I'm sure most people living in both countries are pretty happy with their own systems. It is just a different way of life, and neither is more legitimate than the other in my opinion.

[the_paul]

I haven't really found anything in this thread yet that kthx said that I didn't agree with. Maybe not the way he said it, but his points were right in line with what I feel.

[Galleleo]

Anyways I am sure that the benefits of living in a socialist society as a poor or middle class person definitely outweigh the negatives of it, but that just goes against everything that I learned growing up about being self reliant. Since I just made that concession I am sure you can also make a concession when it comes to knowing that having someone constantly taking care of you, whether it is your parents or your government isn't the best way to go through life. It is hard to grow up and mature when you don't have to struggle at all in life, it is what really creates a persons personality and individuality, and this system basically robs people of that ability.

For me personally, I don't use our social systems a lot at all, basically the only time I use it is when I go to the dentist for my half yearly check-ups, because so far (knock on wood) I have only had to go to the doctor twice in my life, once for stitches and for a really bad stomach ache. Another way I use our benefits is when it comes to school, going to university is dirt cheap for me compared to what I would have to pay in America (though in Sweden, you don't pay anything). And on the flip side, I notice it in gas prices for instance, gas here in America is really cheap, we pay a lot for it in the Netherlands (though the reason for the tax on it being that high is because the government wants to discourage driving, us being a small ass country and stuff). It works both ways, but I am really Dutch in the sense that I don't mind paying for others if they need it.

As far as struggling goes, personally I have had more than enough struggles in my life already, but I guess that is unrelated to all this stuff. However, I do know that if you are poor and living of welfare, you got a house and stuff, but it is not like you are able to live large, you have to pay extremely good attention to what you can and cannot afford. You get 642 euros a month right now if you are in welfare, and I couldn't live off of that with my current expense pattern. I don't think people don't struggle at all.

This thread is pretty much in line with how I read all your posts. They tend to be posts that try to attract attention and praise on your country, along with negative attention to the USA. I don't know man, I can't take threads like this seriously. I hope you aren't really this jaded.

First of all, it is more of a coincidence that this article is about comparing the Netherlands to the US, I didn't look for it, I just came across it through someone else and I found it interesting, no one is forcing you to read my threads.

Second of all, if you read my post, you would see that I was saying that because of my background, because of who I am, I personally don't like the American system. I don't think America is the biggest shithole in the world, but I personally don't agree with this much of a capitalist way of life. What I do dislike is people proclaiming America to be the best country on earth ever. Same if people would claim Canada, England, France, Netherlands, Germany, whatever to be. Every country has it's pros and cons and I definitely don't feel that given the American history you can just proclaim to be the land of the free and land of opportunities and what not. And I never claimed that the Netherlands is the best country in the world, I just don't like it when people underestimate anything either and I will defend it. But there is things I like about the Netherlands, things I don't, there is things I like about America, things I don't. Things I like about England, things I don't.

I just personally like a socialistic system, such as can be found throughout Europe far more than a free for all capitalistic system. Which probably has to do with me being born and growing up in Europe. But I'll prob end up living in a lot of different countries before I really settle down. For instance, I would like to work in London for a few years, I wanna learn Spanish and Japanese and who knows where I will go next, but I am a very internationally orientated person. And there is a lot of stuff I like and/or appreciate about America, but as far as the system goes, it is not in line with my personal morals.

[Mattey]

I just don't understand how people are happy living with a system of government like this.

You are basically mowing your governments lawn for your allowance each week.

The issue isn't the system of government, but the handling of economics. After all, they are still a democracy. Socialist democracies are still democracies. A big difference between a capatalist and socialist democracy is that if you live in a socialist democracy, people care if you are homeless and dying on the streets. In America, if you can't pay your way and don't have any contacts, you are basically SOL. The flip side to this is that we have an awesome space program. So, umm yeah, there's a lot of pros and cons for both sides.

[ignite ignite]

Oh, yes the Dutch government also throws in legalized marijuana and the most ugly hookers in the world. So whats not to love and emulate about them?

[Scoop]

This thread is pretty much in line with how I read all your posts. They tend to be posts that try to attract attention and praise on your country, along with negative attention to the USA. I don't know man, I can't take threads like this seriously. I hope you aren't really this jaded.

[kthx]

Well the 52% tax thing isn't really true in America either honestly, in Texas we have very low property and sales tax, and we pay no state income tax, so our taxes in Texas are considerably lower than in states that have higher property taxes and any state income taxes. Overall I probably pay around 35%-40% of my income into taxes, including sales tax on items I buy and all other taxes including my vehicle registration and inspections.

That 12-17% difference isn't that much I guess considering all the paid vacation and free medical visits you get but I honestly don't have much use for that, I save up my money when I want to go on vacation and I still get paid by my work while I am gone, I have relatively cheap health insurance through my job in the rare occurrence that I do need to visit a doctor which is maybe once a year with me being a healthy person.

Anyways I am sure that the benefits of living in a socialist society as a poor or middle class person definitely outweigh the negatives of it, but that just goes against everything that I learned growing up about being self reliant. Since I just made that concession I am sure you can also make a concession when it comes to knowing that having someone constantly taking care of you, whether it is your parents or your government isn't the best way to go through life. It is hard to grow up and mature when you don't have to struggle at all in life, it is what really creates a persons personality and individuality, and this system basically robs people of that ability.

[Galleleo]

Well, if you are referring to things like this Paulo, than I am still really Dutch and the article basically applies to me. In the sense that I don't mind paying so everyone gets at least the basics, such as health care, housing, etc. And in that sense, I am not a big fan of the American way in total.

Thing is, I don't really interact with a whole lot of Americans here, because what I have noticed over here is that the Americans I talk to and hang out with and stuff either have an international background (like this one guy is from Afghanistan and moved here when he was like 10, he is an American citizen now and considers himself American, or this girl that was born in America, but her dad is Finnish and she lived in Finland from when she was like 2 until she was 10), or Americans that are internationally interested or focused. The other Americans that I have met seem to be, almost scared, or at least reluctant to learn about things different from them. They are like, ow hey you are Dutch? Ok nice, I'll go over here with my American friends, you can stay there. It never goes past hey, how ya doing. And I have been hearing the same thing from the other internationals around here.

For the rest, I do like the university system in the way it incorporates sports into the university life and program. That you can get a scholarship for sports and actively practice sports as part of your whole education, and overall the facilities of this University are pretty good.

I have definitely had a good time here, but I guess it is not so much related to America itself, but more to all the other international students I have met here. As far as the country goes, that article portrays the kind of person that I am pretty well, in that I will never understand or like a system like the American one where it is everyone for itself and everyone always looking out for number one.

Also, as far as the criticism in this thread goes so far. People remarking that we pay 52% just so the government can give it back to us later. The writer does mention that:

But there’s more to it. First, as in the United States, income tax in the Netherlands is a bendy concept: with a good accountant, you can rack up deductions and exploit loopholes. And while the top income-tax rate in the United States is 35 percent, the numbers are a bit misleading. “People coming from the U.S. to the Netherlands focus on that difference, and on that 52 percent,” said Constanze Woelfle, an American accountant based in the Netherlands whose clients are mostly American expats. “But consider that the Dutch rate includes social security, which in the U.S. is an additional 6.2 percent. Then in the U.S. you have state and local taxes, and much higher real estate taxes. If you were to add all those up, you would get close to the 52 percent.”

So in other words, all your taxes in total come close to 52%, but you don't even get it back in the same way that we do. Also, it is not completely true that 52% of your salary goes to the government, we have brackets, and only the portion of your salary that is in the highest bracket will be taxed 52%.

And it is not like the Dutch system is perfect, people still fall through the cracks, people still have problems with their insurance coverage and there are still the horror stories. But they do seem to be a lot more isolated cases. I would say no system is perfect, but I found the read interesting.

[genocidal]

That the Dutch are better at anything and everything

Punk rock can back me up on this one

stop with the joke posts-_-